Define Terrorism Print
A Second Battle of Tours
Written by Douglas Wilson   
Tuesday, 20 November 2012 16:59

Having commented on things Middle Eastern a few times in the last few days, I have had occasion to examine the quality of what passes for "oh, yeah?" these days.

One of the things we need to learn is that terrorism is a tactic. It is an evil tactic, but it is a tactic, and the success of the tactic depends upon it being out there in the open. Thus, to do something evil in secret, or to conduct a "false flag" operation, can be every bit as evil as terrorism, but it does not qualify as terrorism. That secret operation may or may not have happened, and if it did, it was evil. But an "out in the open" operation did happen, and we know because we all saw it, and this means that we know that those who claim to have done such things are in fact evil.

A "surprise attack" is also a tactic, and if the attack is not a surprise, then it was not a surprise attack. Shall I go over this again? If a surprise attack was treacherous, it does not follow from this that anything treacherous must also be a surprise attack. It is the same kind of thing with terrorism. All cows are mammals, but not all mammals are cows. And so, if Iran announced their intention to build a nuclear weapon and launch it at the Sixth Fleet, I am quite prepared to denounce it. But I wouldn't denounce it as a surprise attack, because they announced it beforehand, and I wouldn't denounce it as terrorism because it was a military target. Terrorism is sinful, but something can be sinful, like running for Congress, and not be terrorism.

If somebody blows up a city bus and all the grandmas on it, and their sponsoring organization "claims responsibility," and then tells us that "there is a lot more where that came from," we don't have to do a whole lot of investigating to find out who the dirt bags are. They told us. If one of our drone strikes blows up an Afghan wedding ceremony, and the officials responsible for it apologize right before they are all sacked, we have to do a lot of investigating before we know what it was -- "collateral damage," an "electronic malfunction," "operator error," "culpable manslaughter," or fill in the blank.

Consequently, organizations like Hamas are a known evil. Shilling for them is not much better. Israel does not function in that way, and does not use or avow that tactic. In order to use it at all it must be embraced and owned. Now the fact that Hamas avows this tactic, and Israel denounces it, and yet the "enlightened" opinions of our Isaiah 5:20ers reverse all this, means that something morally bizarre is going on. There is a pecular sort of hatred out there, of the kind that blinds the one who allows it to take up residence behind his eyeballs. There are those, of course, who say they are not blind at all and that the Zionist entity must be paying me big money under the table. Yeah, well, how many fingers am I holding up? How much money are they paying me to make you say two when there are clearly one, two, three?

So, when I say that Israel does not sponsor terrorism, I am making a factual claim that can be easily verified in public. It is similar to the claim that Israel is east of Italy and west of India. This is not hard to distinguish -- it is the difference between claiming responsibility and denying responsibility.

Now it does not follow from this that I am claiming that the Mossad has never murdered anybody in private. It is saying that a private murder, assuming it to have occurred, is not the same thing as public murder done for public effect.

I will also say, in passing, that the sheer inability of many to master this very basic distinction between claim and disclaim, with regard to public events that are publicly owned and those which are disowned, does not inspire confidence in me when such folks claim to have all kinds of inside info on dirty deeds that Noam Chomsky found out about. That's as may be, but since you just finished extracting darkness out of sunbeams, I don't want to see what you can do with actual darkness.

Terrorism is a tactic that targets innocent civilians, and does so for the sake of demoralizing the rest of the nation. An attack on a military installation is not terrorism. "Terrorist" is not synonymous with "bad guys." It is not what the big army calls the little army. It is not an all-purpose term of opprobrium in military affairs.



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Brian  Tuesday, November 20, 2012 6:01 pm
Doug,

With all due respect, you seem insistent on arguing the semantics while avoiding the implications. I agree, semantics are important. Defining your terms are important.

But there are genuine questions to the substance of your argument(s) raised beyond the semantics that you are not answering. (See the comments in the previous post).

So let's accept your argument on the definition of terrorism. Hamas sponsors it, the state of Israel does not. Now what? We "whole-heartedly" support any state that does absolutely anything in response to any amount of terrorism?

Please, I hope you don't take this harshly because much of what you are saying needs to be said. But the one-sidedness of so many on this issue really isn't helpful.
elisabeth thunderberry  - demoralizing a nation  Tuesday, November 20, 2012 7:31 pm
this was a scary post....collateral damage!..and targets innocent victims...a nation that embraces death!
Will S  Wednesday, November 21, 2012 5:04 am
Elizabeth,

You do realize that there is such thing as just war right? You do realize that Israel has a right to defend herself, right?

If Israel disarmed or refused to defend herself, how long do you think it would be until half the nation was beheaded and the other half was fleeing with their lives and nothing else? Is that the sort of justice you believe in?

The alternative to fighting just wars is to allow tyrants to get whatever they want.

Now, I think you can make the case that the US has been too quick to enter some wars and that some of them (or some elements of them) might not classify as just. But do not think that this means that all war is unjust.

Collateral damage is when you aim for a military target and civilians are hurt in the process. That sometimes happens in just war. There is nothing that can be done about it. Modern wars fought by the US (and Israel) are getting better and better at reducing collateral damage. We spend billions in the effort to be careful and to avoid hurting civilians. If we didn't care about collateral damage we could have just nuked Afghanistan back in 2001 and we wouldn't have to worry about it anymore.
John McNeely  Tuesday, November 20, 2012 8:25 pm
All the people commenting in disagreement with Pastor Wilson I have some questions. What is the purpose of government if not to defend its citizens from foreign aggression? If rockets were landing in your neighborhood what should be the proper response?
Matt Weber  Tuesday, November 20, 2012 9:07 pm
I think my response would be to use some of that copious aid money from the US to line the wall separating Israel from Gaza with some rocket screen defense. My understanding is that they already have something like this available. Israel receives 7.8 million a day from the US...what are they using it on?

I don't really see the point of this post though. No one likes Hamas, so portraying it as a either-or between Israel and Hamas is sorta silly. Hamas is no threat to Israel. Ten years ago, the terrorism was at least serious and a few buses got blown up, but now all they can do is lob a few lousy rockets. Ten years from now they might not even be able to manage that.

It bears repeating, Hamas is absolutely no threat to Israel. Their only goal is to provoke an overblown response, which works marvelously every time. What is the point of airstrikes and all that jazz? Are they going to militarily defeat Hamas? Such a concept is absurd. Hamas will be around as long as the Palestinians remain in this weird Apartheid-esque stasis.

Israel only has two options to end this. Either cut the territories loose and wash their hands of them, or grab the machetes (or the ordinance) and start butchering until the remnant is too small and demoralized to cause any trouble. Probably their trying to do the latter in slow motion, by just oppressing and starving the Palestinians in the hope that 50 years from now there just won't be enough of them left to cause any trouble.

Really, what else is there? Whatever you think of Israel, they aren't stupid. They know what kind of game they're playing and they know how it is going to end.
Will S  Wednesday, November 21, 2012 5:06 am
Matt, do you think that a radicalized Egypt is a threat to Israel?
Matt Weber  Wednesday, November 21, 2012 5:52 am
Certainly, as well as an islamist Turkey.
Will S  Wednesday, November 21, 2012 4:46 am
I think that anti-colonialism is the reason that most liberals are against Israel. Israelites tend to have lighter skin. They tend to be richer. And they have a nation in an area that was once ruled by people with darker skin. That looks like colonialism to most people.

And since colonialism is the worst thing that ever cursed the earth (that is the reason Africa is poor, Mexico is crime ridden, and Detroit needs RoboCop), there is a true reluctance to give Israelite actions the benefit of the doubt.

Sarcasm aside, I think we need to educate people about colonialism. It was not a bad thing. In fact, it helped all the people that it is usually said to have hurt. It improved length of life, wealth and education. Niall Ferguson has a great chapter on this in "Civilization".
JP1  Wednesday, November 21, 2012 5:28 am
Equating all Violence as Evil, which many are doing in their slavery to Moral Wquivalence.....completely undermines Christianity. God used Violence against his on Son at the Cross to save mankind afterall...
Frank Golubski  - Colonialism v. Interventionism?  Wednesday, November 21, 2012 11:17 am
Will S:
Quote:
I think we need to educate people about colonialism. It was not a bad thing.
Do you think there's a difference between colonialism and interventionism? Perhaps the intervention is just a subsequent (metastasized?) version of colonialism? Seems like "we" interven for the same reasons that "we" colonize: to develop -- then exploit -- resources that the natives cannot, and usually to their detriment.

I've really appreciated Sheldon Richman's Cato Policy Analysis, "'Ancient History': U.S. Conduct in the Middle East Since World War II and the Folly of Intervention," especially considering that he wrote it in 1991 (Gulf War I).

http://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/ancient-history-us-conduct-middle-east-world-war-ii-folly-intervention
Will S  Wednesday, November 21, 2012 8:57 pm
Of course it can be done to exploit. That doesn't mean it is done to exploit.
Frank Golubski  - One more thing  Wednesday, November 21, 2012 11:21 am
Colonialism may not be a bad thing per se, but in certain instances, it certainly has been done badly.

Hawaii is a classic case.
Will S  Wednesday, November 21, 2012 8:55 pm
I cannot speak to Hawaii but I have done a bit of research on Africa and the Americas and colonialism certainly was not perfect and there were examples of bad colonists doing bad things but on a whole it was a net positive for the native peoples.

Lifespans increased, slavery decreased, medicine improved, economic systems were implemented, and life as a whole got better.

People always look at the bad things the colonists did and don't look at the bad things that were already going on. Africa, for example, already had slavery - that was not an invention of the colonists. The American Indians were already in a state of constant warfare that was not an invention of the westerners. The conquistadors drove out the human sacrificing kings who were already in control.

Colonialism like every other political structure or strategy can be done well or not so well. It can be done by good Christians or wicked tyrants.

But you cannot say that because something looks like colonialism, it must be bad.
Eric the Red  Wednesday, November 21, 2012 1:26 pm
Doug, by your definition, would Samson have been a terrorist? Sending burning foxes through people's fields and knocking out the pillars of a temple that killed several thousand people would certainly seem to qualify.

What about God? Were the ten plagues on Egypt terrorism? Killing every first born in the land looks like terrorism to me. If not, why not?

And if your answer is that one or both of them qualify as terrorism, then maybe we should just acknowledge that terrorism is sometimes good and sometimes bad, and so time can be better spent than quibbling over its precise definition.
Daniel Alders  - Uh..  Wednesday, November 21, 2012 7:23 pm
Eric,

Last I checked, when God decided to do something, it's usually outside any parameters we as creatures might set up. (Seriously, what did God do to Mary? How did she become "with child"??)

So no, of course what God did to Egypt would not be classified in the same category as the "terrorism" that we're discussing. Watch Nate's talk at the latest Grace Agenda on Trouble Makers. I think that's the difference between what he refers to as "God trouble" and "Man trouble." Completely different.
Steve Perry  - Thanks Doug!  Wednesday, November 21, 2012 6:02 pm
Excellent! A reformed pastor who has not theologically holocausted ethnic Jews into a cosmic lottery of election.
Jonathan  - re:  Thursday, November 22, 2012 2:43 am
Will S wrote:
You do realize that there is such thing as just war right?


I don't. I don't see any basis in the New Testament for that at all, and it explicitly contradicts a lot of clear and obvious statements by Jesus and Paul. It might take some work to unpack exactly what war meant in the Old Testament and why Jesus made it so clear that his followers aren't to partake in such things now, but I find it more reasonable to follow in the clear statements of Jesus and then try to understand the Old Testament in that light rather than to ignore Jesus.



Will S wrote:
If Israel disarmed or refused to defend herself, how long do you think it would be until half the nation was beheaded and the other half was fleeing with their lives and nothing else? Is that the sort of justice you believe in?


I believe in a God of justice who has promised us that he has control. I believe that it is absolutely our responsibility to act in justice at all times, and not to perpetuate injustice ourselves. I think it is our responsibility to come to the aid of victims of injustice, and to come to the aid of our enemies with love as well. But I don't believe it is our responsibility to determine what punishment is due to "evildoers" and to deal it out ourselves. We are not the arbitrators of justice, at least not yet.



Will S wrote:
The alternative to fighting just wars is to allow tyrants to get whatever they want.


That is absolutely false. First, it denies all action by God. Second, it denies a very effective history of nonviolent action (despite the fact that about a hundredth of the energy has been put into nonviolent action as has been put into actively fighting war). Finally, it assumes that fighting wars hasn't continued to result in tyrants getting what they want more often than not.

All else you say about what does or does not happen in "just wars" assumes all sorts of things about how war might be "just" that I don't think you could find any Christian basis for in the Bible.
Will S  Thursday, November 22, 2012 7:54 am
Hi Jonathan,

//I don't. I don't see any basis in the New Testament for that at all, and it explicitly contradicts a lot of clear and obvious statements by Jesus and Paul.//


He [Jesus] said to them, "But now one who has a money bag should take it, and likewise a sack, and one who does not have a sword should sell his cloak and buy one."

Why was Jesus telling them to buy a sword? To chop onions?

The bible is full of war stories about faithful men of God fighting for just reasons.

//I believe in a God of justice who has promised us that he has control.//

God is in control of our health too. Are you against medicine? Food? God is in control of our salvation, are you against evangelism?

God is for justice. Justice requires the sword. Fighting against the unjust. If a violent psycho walks into a school yard and starts punching kids, the man of God tackles him and protects the kids. The coward says, "God is in control" and does nothing.

//I believe that it is absolutely our responsibility to act in justice at all times, and not to perpetuate injustice ourselves. I think it is our responsibility to come to the aid of victims of injustice, and to come to the aid of our enemies with love as well.//

No you don't. You don't believe in coming to the aid of victims of violence. You think we should stand by and watch the bullies beating on the victims because you deny the existence of just war.

//But I don't believe it is our responsibility to determine what punishment is due to "evildoers" and to deal it out ourselves. We are not the arbitrators of justice, at least not yet.//

?? So..... the evil doers are just to be set free? Open the prison doors? Is that your strategy?

You may have noticed that I blended domestic concerns with international affairs. I think the same principles apply. The man who watches his kids beaten by an armed robber and refuses to raise his hand is a coward. The same can be said internationally. The country that failed to raise its hand to stop Hitler was the cowardly country.
Jonathan  - re:  Thursday, November 22, 2012 2:48 am
JP1 wrote:
Equating all Violence as Evil, which many are doing in their slavery to Moral Wquivalence.....completely undermines Christianity. God used Violence against his on Son at the Cross to save mankind afterall...


Christ accepted violence from humans acting with evil intentions on the cross. What many Christians are against, and what seems like the opposite of "moral equivalence", is a Christian role in dealing out the violent judgment that is God's role alone. Saying that we should love our enemies, that we should should do no harm to them, that we should turn the other cheek, that all who live by the sword will die by the sword...I don't that as undermining Christianity in the least. Tertullian was quite clear in the late 2nd century that no example of Christians using violence, even in response to unjust violence, could be noted by anyone, and Christianity certainly did not appear to be undermined.
Jonathan  - re:  Thursday, November 22, 2012 2:56 am
Will S wrote:
I cannot speak to Hawaii but I have done a bit of research on Africa and the Americas and colonialism certainly was not perfect and there were examples of bad colonists doing bad things but on a whole it was a net positive for the native peoples.

Lifespans increased, slavery decreased, medicine improved, economic systems were implemented, and life as a whole got better.


I have an incredible time believing this to be true about Native Americans. How can you quantify up to 95% of the population being killed by disease, their land being taken, their way of life being effectively eliminated, and most either dying without the gospel or having their hearts hardened to it by the evil acts of those associated with the gospel...and then say that all that's outweighed by...what exactly? The fact that a small percentage were able to assimilate into White society?
Will S  Thursday, November 22, 2012 8:11 am
Jonathan, The 95% number is much higher than reality based on all my readings. What is your source? But it is sort of besides the point. You are aware that plagues were also nothing new to either continent and that Europeans had themselves almost been completely wiped out in some areas due to various plagues.

It should also be noted that the colonialists hardly were spared from early death themselves. They died in large numbers and at early ages. And came at great risk of family, life and limb.

But unlike the natives, the colonialists studied the diseases, used the scientific method to determine causes and cures, and slowly and with purpose came up with solutions.

Their work helped everyone.

As far as their "way of life", it was no better than it is now and in many ways worse. Do not believe the propaganda that the Native Americans were always happy and carefree, tiptoeing through the forest and teaching wise sayings to the little indians. The truth is that it was a dark and sad and frightening experience. They did not understand science or natural law. It was very difficult for them to survive. They suffered through disease, drought, floods, and lack of nutrition. Most were in a constant state of war with other tribes.

They were not nice people either. Women were abused. Kids were forced into war (and killed by neighboring tribes). They were not "one with nature" either. They ran herds of buffalo off cliffs only to use a few - leaving the rest.

Colonists didn't come and fight against "a people", they came and became one of many "peoples" at war. And if you can get your hands on non-biased histories you will see that, in general, the colonists attempted peaceful relations at first.
Jonathan  - re:  Thursday, November 22, 2012 9:39 am
Will S wrote:
Jonathan, The 95% number is much higher than reality based on all my readings. What is your source? But it is sort of besides the point. You are aware that plagues were also nothing new to either continent and that Europeans had themselves almost been completely wiped out in some areas due to various plagues.

My readings of the research were that there were numerous tribes that experienced up to 95% elimination of their number by disease. If that is increased to all causes of death by colonists (disease, direct warfare, and starvation/exposure due to forced relocation), then I'm sure even more tribes would be in that number - I think that would be impossible to argue, since for some populations it was obviously 100%.

I'm guessing that your were objecting to the idea that ALL Native Americans faced a 95% fatality rate? I'm sure that's true, though the overall death rate depends on the initial population, and I was under the impression that those estimates varied widely from 2-4 million up to 20-30 million. But even if the overall death rate wasn't 95%, I don't see how that would be comforting. Is a tribe eliminated by colonialism in Massachusetts supposed to take solace in the fact that a few member of some unrelated tribe were still alive in New Mexico?

As far as plagues/warfare being nothing new, I don't see what your point there is at all. If police officers shoot all the members of a certain gang, is that okay because there was already some gang warfare? I don't see how you get around the idea that being killed off in huge numbers was incredibly bad for an incredible numbers of North American civilizations, or that colonialism was the direct cause of that death and suffering. Your "they would have died anyway, so we might as well have killed them" argument, even if it were true in this case, only finds justification in certain moral spheres, which I didn't believe that anyone here subscribed to.



Will S wrote:
But unlike the natives, the colonialists studied the diseases, used the scientific method to determine causes and cures, and slowly and with purpose came up with solutions.

And how the heck was colonialism necessary for that? All those advances could have happened without colonization. All the information learned could have been shared without colonization. In fact, I think it's quite likely that collaboration would have been far more mutually beneficial than colonization - both sides lost information, and gained hate and death, that they could have not had otherwise. The animosity to the gospel by many is one of the greatest losses.


Will S wrote:
As far as their "way of life", it was no better than it is now and in many ways worse.

That's your value judgement. A year ago my wife and I spent two months living with a friend who was working as a social worker in an Indian reservation in California. I also briefly lived in a Canadian city where I interacted with dozens of Native Americans who did not live in a reservation. I can't imagine anyone who knew the people I or my friend knew who could say that they were better off. Neither my Native American friends, nor those people who knew them, believed that for a second.

Regardless of whether you think their life was "better", it was their life. They were able to chose it. Without colonization, they were able to choose it. That should be a fundamental human right.

It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if Europeans had initiated trade relationships, shared information, but not moved in and lived on Native American lands unless they accepted the authority of the local Native American governments. As both sides learned from each other, any Europeans who wished could have moved into Native American societies, any Native Americans who wished could have moved to European societies, and both societies would have had the opportunity to adjust their own society as they wished.


Will S wrote:
Do not believe the propaganda that the Native Americans were always happy and carefree, tiptoeing through the forest and teaching wise sayings to the little indians. The truth is that it was a dark and sad and frightening experience. They did not understand science or natural law. It was very difficult for them to survive.

As opposed to the existence of the majority of 15th-century Europeans, I'm sure. I've never sugar coated Native American life. But it is their choice to chose their life. Europeans could have given them options, via trade and communication. But because of colonization, they never had the option to chose.

I'm also interested as to your metric for what makes a "better" life - I'm not sure that understanding science is the key.


Will S wrote:
They were not nice people either. Women were abused. Kids were forced into war (and killed by neighboring tribes). They were not "one with nature" either. They ran herds of buffalo off cliffs only to use a few - leaving the rest.

As opposed to 15th-century Europeans again, of course.


Will S wrote:
Colonists didn't come and fight against "a people", they came and became one of many "peoples" at war. And if you can get your hands on non-biased histories you will see that, in general, the colonists attempted peaceful relations at first.

And Hitler tried peaceful negotiations to take over several parcels of European land before that stopped working and he transitioned into open warfare. Your support for the idea of "we will occupy land that other people are already utilizing under threat of force and continue taking more until they try to stop us, at which point we will kill them" is ridiculous.

And even by your definition of "peaceful relations via colonization", your history would still fail. Did Columbus try peace first? Oñate? Pizarro? Toledo? Cortes? Jamestown? Roanoke? San Miguel de Gualdape? Narváez? I think in large part the French at least did operate with peaceful relations, but as for the Spanish and British forces actually establishing colonies, there were many, many examples of them starting with force, murder, and manstealing/slavery from the very beginning.
Will S  Thursday, November 22, 2012 10:52 am
hi Jonathan, I think you miss the point on the plagues. Plagues are not war. They are not colonialism. Plagues happen. Or they used to until the Europeans discovered cures and prevention to them.

I think blaming disease on the colonists is similar to blaming lung cancer deaths caused by tobacco on the indians. How many millions have died of the tobacco that Indians gave us?

As far as warfare, the Europeans didn't introduce that. The indians were at constant war already.

And let me get this straight.... you think the current state of the Native Americans is worse than constant war, starvation, malnutrition and a dark life of fear? You think that they have less choices today? Modern indians could, I am sure, go live in state parks with tents and a wild life survival guide if they wanted to. They could forgo medicine if they wanted. They could do whatever they want. But guess what? No one does. Why? Because life sucked for them back then. Stop romanticizing the life of the American Indians. It was not special. It was dark and brutal. Everyone thinks that living in nature is great for other people but no one does it themselves. Why is that?

And for that matter, I think much of people's problems with the colonialism is a racist and/or religious problem. It is because the victors of these wars had lighter skin and practiced Christianity. If the Cherokees had won a major battle and driven out and killed all the other tribes, no one would say anything. And guess what? That happened plenty prior to the arrival of the Europeans. There was no Indian nation that we conquered. There a bunch of warring tribes who butchered each other when they were not starving to death.

My definition of a better life is this: Access to the gospel. Access to food. Access to medicine. Clothing. Not being in a constant state of war. Modern native americans have all that I think. I am well aware their lives are not great now.... but it is not like it used to be.

Godwin's law has been proved (once again) with your Hitler comments. But why did you choose hitler? Why not choose Geronimo the Indiian warlord who drove many other indians off land? Why not choose Tecumseh who slaughter plenty of innocent people? Why not choose some African chief who slaughtered some other African village?

The fact is that war is not always equal to Hitler. To go to a relatively low population continent with no recognizable established government and to set up a colony is not immoral. To defend the colony against tribal leaders who would like to slaughter your family is not bad either. To try to teach them Christianity is good. To try to educate them is good. Colonies were not Hitler.

And for that matter, who gave the Indians the right to that land? Did the Indians in Massachusetts that met the colonists steal that land from anyone else? Were they the original settlers there? Probably not. All nations were established with war of some sort. The colonies of the US were hardly the first or the most brutal.

I think the main problem with people that are anti-colonialists is a rosy picture of what the colonists met there. People think that Cortes came in and slaughtered nice people. These were people practicing human sacrifice, slavery, and mass murder. Cortes replaced (Godwin's law alert) something akin to Hitler. Wicked at brutal governments who took pleasure in war, murder, the occult, and oppression.

The Spanish governments who took over South America were not great. But they were one heckuva a lot better than the nasty lot of rulers that were there prior.
Jonathan  Thursday, November 22, 2012 7:08 pm
Will S wrote:
You think that they have less choices today? Modern indians could, I am sure, go live in state parks with tents and a wild life survival guide if they wanted to. Everyone thinks that living in nature is great for other people but no one does it themselves. Why is that?


This is just stunning to me. I think this statement betrays your ignorance of everything we're talking about. Just to be clear on all the ways you're wrong:

1) No, they couldn't do that, they would be kicked out.

2) There's a huge difference between living in a tent somewhere and living in a functioning Native American society.

3) There's a huge difference between the land resources available and the land resources that Native American were living on.

4) For many tribes, saying "yeah, you were kicked off your land and your society was destroyed, but just go and pitch a tent on some other land somewhere" was the functional equivalent of forcing the Jewish people off their land, destroying their society, and then telling them that if they complained, they could put up a tent in the Sahara. Many cultures, including both Jewish culture and many Native American cultures, have deep connection to their ancestral land and are deeply hurt by being removed from it.

5) Even with all the downsides, many tribes tried to do the equivalent of what you suggest at many times in American history. They were kicked off the land as soon as the colonists wanted it. In several cases, they were hunted down and forced into reservations even when they were on land that no one wanted yet.


Will S wrote:
Stop romanticizing the life of the American Indians. It was not special. It was dark and brutal.

I don't think you can find a single comment of mine romanticizing their lives anywhere. I am merely saying it was better than being invaded, dying of plagues (which, contrary to your claims, were far worse than the plagues previously affecting them), being killed by the sword, being forced off their ancestral land, having their societies systematically destroyed, and being forced to bend to the will of a foreign government. That doesn't even cover the effects of segregation, the reservation schools, individual massacres of Indians, etc.

If Native Americans had left their culture to join European culture, that would have been their choice. They could have been given that choice. But that almost never happened unless their land was already taken, their people already killed off, and their societies already being destroyed. For me to point out that numerous Europeans under no similar duress chose of their own vocation to join Native American society isn't "romanticizing" the culture - it's just pointing out that your unsourced stereotypes may be lacking foundation.


Will S wrote:
And for that matter, I think much of people's problems with the colonialism is a racist and/or religious problem. It is because the victors of these wars had lighter skin and practiced Christianity. If the Cherokees had won a major battle and driven out and killed all the other tribes, no one would say anything.

You think I have a problem with White people or with Christians? I categorically deny that, and don't think you can find the slightest evidence for it. Your attempt to play the race/religion card is a logical fallacy.


Will S wrote:
My definition of a better life is this: Access to the gospel. Access to food. Access to medicine. Clothing. Not being in a constant state of war. Modern native americans have all that I think. I am well aware their lives are not great now.... but it is not like it used to be.

Those factors are not the result of colonization, and in a vacuum they do not necessarily make your life better. A prisoner-of-war whose entire family has been murdered and who is being tortured in solitary confinement in a dungeon can have all of those things too. That extreme example shows how simplistic and non-sympathetic your view of Native Americans is. If you kill off someone's family, take their land, destroy their society, say you did it all in the name of Christ, and then give them food, medicine, and Bibles, you haven't improved their lives.


Will S wrote:
Godwin's law has been proved (once again) with your Hitler comments. But why did you choose hitler? Why not choose Geronimo the Indiian warlord who drove many other indians off land? Why not choose Tecumseh who slaughter plenty of innocent people? Why not choose some African chief who slaughtered some other African village?

What's the point of saying "Godwin's Law"? On this very blog, you were the first one to bring up a Hitler comparison in an argument less than a week ago. Your sudden focus on Godwin's law when you have no problem invoking Hitler to prove your own points is more rhetorical game-playing.

I brought up Hitler because he started "peacefully" (though with violence a clear threat), and then moved into violence once the peaceful attempts had run their course. I felt it was a well-known example that won't be justified as easily as you justify the same things happening to Native Americans.


Will S wrote:
The fact is that war is not always equal to Hitler. To go to a relatively low population continent with no recognizable established government and to set up a colony is not immoral. To defend the colony against tribal leaders who would like to slaughter your family is not bad either. To try to teach them Christianity is good. To try to educate them is good. Colonies were not Hitler.

No, they were not Hitler, they were Columbus, Oñate, Pizarro, Toledo, Cortes, Jamestown, Roanoke, San Miguel de Gualdape, Narváez, and many, many others.
Jonathan  Thursday, November 22, 2012 7:21 pm
I had a bunch more regarding your claims of constant war, medical alleviation of disease, etc. etc. But I think we're getting caught up in too many generalizations. So lets start at the beginning, and just go one at a time.

Columbus.

Did the state of the Arawak peoples improve or decline when Columbus first attempted to develop colonies among them? If you believe it improved, when do you think that the first signs of improvement were shown? If it declined, was Columbus culpable in that decline? Did Columbus and his men treat the Arawaks with Christian love or with indefensible brutality?

Was colonization good for the Arawaks that Columbus encountered?

I'd like to see what you think about that example, and then we can move on to the next.
Will S  Thursday, November 22, 2012 8:59 pm
Hi Jonathan,

I don't believe that a single Native American would go back to how things were before 1492 if given the choice today. I know many would say they would like to do that. But they would not. I think you do not realize how terrible that life was.

Constant war, regular famine, no medicine, early death. That was their state. No one would go back. People like the rosy tail we tell about indians tip toeing through the tulips while talking to the animals like Tarzan but that is a myth. It was not a nice life like that.

Any comparison of the colonists to Hitler is a terrible libel. There was no attempted holocaust or removal of the Indian people from the earth. There were isolated incidences of mass killings but most deaths happened in the context of war.

Hitler wanted to wipe the Jews from the earth. He wanted to crush the non Arian races. The colonists (in almost all cases) wanted nothing of the sort. The French colonies in Africa, for example, attempted to make the Africans French citizens and encouraged intermarriage. The American colonies were not quite as friendly but there is no evidence of any full scale effort to eradicate the race from the earth. In fact, there was a full scale effort to convert them to Christianity, educate them, and "civilize" them.

You cannot blame the colonists for the spread of the plague. The reduction in the population of native americans was not due to war but to small pox. This was not the fault of the Europeans but was the bad fortune of a people who did not practice hygiene, had no scientific method, and thought sickness was caused by spirits in animals and trees.

You have not addressed the fact of who the tribes in Massachusetts drove out prior to the arrival of the Mayflower. Were the people that were there the original people who showed up or where they themselves occupiers.

You didn't explain why you choose Hitler as a comparison to Cortes and not Geronimo or Tecumseh. Do you think that the people the Europeans drove out were more brutal and less kind to their enemies than the people that were there?

How are land rights established? Who is the rightful owner of England for example? The Saxons who had it before the Normans showed up? Or the Celts who had it before the Anglo-Saxons raided it from Germany? Or should we go back before the Celts and find out which tribe had it before them?

How do we decide who gets what piece of land? Did the Native Americans in MA in 1492 find it unoccupied or did they drive someone out? Did they massacre someone to get the land? And if they did, was it really that bad for the Puritans to set up shop there too? At least the Puritans tried to befriend them.

As far as the Godwin thing....chill! It was a joke.
Will S  Thursday, November 22, 2012 9:00 pm
As far as Columbus, the claims that he was a bad leader are out there. There is some doubt in scholarship as to whether the claims of atrocities are accurate (he had political enemies that may have stirred up false claims) but even if they are true, that is besides the point.

I am not claiming that every colonist was a saint or that every interaction was a net positive for the native peoples. What I am claiming is that the colonization process, as a whole, was good for everyone and made the world a better place with more access to theological, medical, educational, and agricultural resources that improved the way of life for everyone.
Jonathan  Friday, November 23, 2012 10:48 am
Will S wrote:
As far as Columbus, the claims that he was a bad leader are out there. There is some doubt in scholarship as to whether the claims of atrocities are accurate (he had political enemies that may have stirred up false claims) but even if they are true, that is besides the point.

You are able to know very clearly what the situation was like for all Native Americans before 1492, even down to what their exact hypothetical preferences would be, yet you are unable to offer anything definitive for one of the most well-documented European explorers of the same era? The atrocities are quite clear and I don't know anyone who doubts them other than revisionists with ulterior motives. We'll start with this simple chart:

Native population of Hispanola:

1492: estimates range from 1.5 to 5 million
1496: 1.1 million (first census)
1507: 60,000
1516: 12,000
1531: 600
1542: under 200
1555: extinct or extremely close to it


Are you still ambivalent about whether Columbus was a net positive for the Arawaks?

Your generalized claims that there was no recognizable government and relatively low population, that the colonists tried peaceful relations first, that the previous rulers were worse than the colonists, and that there was overall benefit for the natives are all obviously false for the case of Hispanola and the Arawaks. If you can admit that, we can go on to the next case. If you would rather offer generalizations lumping all Native Americans together with no evidence other than your convinced assertions, then we're stuck.

Over and over you claim definitive knowledge of the situation of ALL Native American peoples before colonization, even though you've offered no evidence for your claims. But you wouldn't answer very simple questions about Columbus except with an unclear "well, we don't really know" response. If you still want to deny reality, I'll add a few quotes from primary documents from the time period, including from Columbus himself.


“I saw a piece of land which appeared like an island, although it is not one, and on it there were six houses. It might be converted into an island in two days, though I do not see that it would be necessary, for these people are very simple as regards the use of arms, as your Highnesses will see from the seven that I caused to be taken, to bring home and learn our language and return; unless your Highnesses should order them all to be brought to Castile, or to be kept as captives on the same island; for with fifty men they can all be subjugated and made to do what is required of them.” – Columbus, journal entry from 14th of October 1492, just two days after discovery of the island.

"So tractable, so peaceable, are these people, that I swear to your Majesties there is not in the world a better nation. They love their neighbors as themselves, and their discourse is ever sweet and gentle, and accompanied with a smile; and though it is true that they are naked, yet their manners are decorous and praiseworthy....
It is possible, with the name of the Holy Trinity, to sell all the slaves which it is possible to sell. Here there are so many of these slaves, and also brazilwood, that although they are living things they are as good as gold." – Columbus, writing to the king and queen in 1493

“And there I found very many islands filled with people innumerable, and of them all I have taken possession for their Highnesses.” – Columbus, letter to Luis de Santangel in April 1493

"they are artless and generous with what they have, to such a degree as no one would believe but him who had seen it. Of anything they have, if it be asked for, they never say no, but do rather invite the person to accept it, and show as much lovingness as though they would give their hearts.” – Columbus, in that same letter to Santangel

"their Highnesses may see that I shall give them as much gold as they need .... and slaves as many as they shall order to be shipped." Columbus, again in the same letter

"When our caravels were to leave for Spain, we gathered one thousand six hundred male and female persons of those Indians, and these we embarked in our caravels on February 17, 1495. For those who remained, we let it be known in the vicinity that anyone who wanted to take some of them could do so, to the amount desired, which was done." – Miguel Cueno, shipmate of Columbus

When I was in the boat, I took a beautiful Cannibal girl and the admiral gave her to me. Having her in my room and she being naked as is their custom, I began to want to amuse myself with her. Since I wanted to have my way with her and she was not willing, she worked me over so badly with her nails that I wished I had never begun. To get to the end of the story, seeing how things were going, I got a rope and tied her up so tightly that she made unheard of cries which you wouldn't have believed. At the end, we got along so well that, let me tell you, it seemed she had studied at a school for whores. – Michele de Cuneo, childhood friend and shipmate of Columbus, October 28, 1495

"A hundred castellanoes are as easily obtained for a woman as for a farm, and it is very general and there are plenty of dealers who go about looking for girls; those from nine to ten are now in demand." – Columbus, writing to a friend in 1500

"(The Indians) all promised to pay tribute to the Catholic Sovereigns every three months, as follows: In the Cibao, where the gold mines were, every person of 14 years of age or upward was to pay a large hawk's bell of gold dust; all others were each to pay 25 pounds of cotton. Whenever an Indian delivered his tribute, he was to receive a brass or copper token which he must wear about his neck as proof that he had made his payment. Any Indian found without such a token was to be punished." – Ferdinand Columbus

“I am the voice of Christ crying in the desert of this island, therefore, it is right that you listen attentively...All of you are in mortal sin and in it you live and will die for the cruelty with which you treat these innocent people.

Tell me, by what right or justice do you keep these Indians in such cruel and horrible servitude...? By what authority have you declared such detestable wars on this people who were living, calmly and peacefully on their lands, where you have allowed an infinite number of them to be consumed in their sickness, resulting in death and destruction never heard of before? Through the excessive work you demand of them, they fall ill and die, or rather, you kill them with your desire to extract and acquire gold every day. And what do you care if someone instructs them in the Faith and that they know their God and Creator, are baptized, attend Mass, keep holy days and Sundays?

Are these not men? Have they not rational souls? Are you not bound to love them as you love yourselves? This, do you not understand? This, do you not feel? Are you in such a profound sleep that you are lethargic? Be certain that in such a state as you are, you can no more be saved than the Moors or Turks who lack and do not want the Faith of Jesus Christ.”
– Fr. Antonio de Montesinos, sermon to the Spaniards on December 21, 1511, just over one year after the Dominicans had first arrived on the island

More where that came from: http://www.domlife.org/2011Stories/files/anniv_garcia_martinez.pdf

"As a result of the sufferings and hard labor they endured, the Indians choose and have chosen suicide. Occasionally a hundred have committed mass suicide. The women, exhausted by labor, have shunned conception and childbirth. Many, when pregnant, have taken something to abort and have aborted. Others after delivery have killed their children with their own hands, so as not to leave them in such oppressive slavery." – Pedro de Cordoba, writing to King Ferdinand in 1517


Do you have evidence that the vast majority of colonists acted substantially differently? We can move on similarly through the other major colonists of the next century or two - Oñate, Pizarro, Toledo, Cortes, Jamestown, Roanoke, San Miguel de Gualdape, Narváez...


Will S wrote:
I am not claiming that every colonist was a saint or that every interaction was a net positive for the native peoples. What I am claiming is that the colonization process, as a whole, was good for everyone and made the world a better place with more access to theological, medical, educational, and agricultural resources that improved the way of life for everyone.

You still haven't answered the prison analogy or the Hebrew analogy - are better physical things any good if you are in captivity, or have had your entire family killed, or have been thrown off your ancestral land? Did the colonial process help the spread of the Bible, or seriously hinder it because those bringing the Word of God acted so inhumanely?
Will S  Friday, November 23, 2012 7:17 pm
Once again, you have confused the spread of disease with colonialism. The people of Hispaniola were decimated by small pox not mass murder. This is not a problem with colonialism. This is a problem with ignorance as to the causes and cures of disease.

Why do you keep bringing this up?

Apparently, you have the same problem with emigration as you do with colonialism. The introduction of new peoples causes new diseases that often have terrible consequences. The only way to avoid this is to prevent emigration and people movements. Are you against all immigration and people movements?

By your logic, now that we do not have the same problem with the spread of disease, we could colonize like crazy right?
Jonathan  - re:  Friday, November 23, 2012 11:25 am
Will S wrote:
I don't believe that a single Native American would go back to how things were before 1492 if given the choice today. I know many would say they would like to do that. But they would not. I think you do not realize how terrible that life was.

You not only know more about all this than me, but you seem to think you know more about them, their history, their current situation, and their exact preferences than even they themselves do, even though you don't personally know the vast majority of them (if any?). I think that's incredible egotism.



Will S wrote:
Any comparison of the colonists to Hitler is a terrible libel. There was no attempted holocaust or removal of the Indian people from the earth....

Hitler wanted to wipe the Jews from the earth. He wanted to crush the non Arian races. The colonists (in almost all cases) wanted nothing of the sort.....

That's not how an analogy works. I didn't say a word about Hitler's genocide. I was solely speaking about Hitler's land expansion. I'm guessing that most colonists weren't vegetarians either, but that doesn't mean that they didn't mix together both coercive threats and violent action in order to take control of more land. That was the ONLY sense in which I compared what they were doing to what Hitler did. That's why I used that analogy - because Hitler's actions are well-known and because his mix of expansion methods fit the point.


Will S wrote:
This was not the fault of the Europeans but was the bad fortune of a people who did not practice hygiene, had no scientific method, and thought sickness was caused by spirits in animals and trees.

You think those were the reasons that the diseases hit the Native Americans so badly? Most Native Americans practiced better hygiene than the average European - where do you get the idea that they didn't practice hygiene? The scientific method was in infancy when colonization started, and no medical breakthroughs had been discovered by the Europeans explaining any of these plagues. They couldn't effectively combat smallpox until the late 18th century, and the didn't know what caused plague until the early 20th century.

In the time of the colonists, even European royalty was practicing ridiculous and utterly ineffective "red treatment" in order to try to fight smallpox. Hundreds of years into colonization, Europeans believed that the plague was caused by things as diverse as poisonous air, astrological alignments, or Jewish treachery. Your attempts to claim that Native Americans suffered more because they lacked disease knowledge are 100% false. And far from helping them, Europeans made it worse. Other than the incidents of purposeful biological warfare (which happened, but were most likely rare), the extreme trials that Europeans put Native American through via slavery, war, and forced removal from land made their disease incidence far worse. In fact, scholars have shown that tuberculosis, a disease already native to the Americas, actually got far worse among Native Americans after colonists arrived.

Both Native Americans and Europeans attributed the plagues to punishment from God. Both Native Americans and Europeans could do nothing for victims other than offer basic nursing care (which Native Americans were already recorded by Europeans to be doing back in the 1500s, but which was impossible in the many cases where the vast majority of a village's population was getting sick at once). Your attempts to make them look silly or stupid in comparison are just examples of your own misinformation.
Will S  Friday, November 23, 2012 7:22 pm
So you are blaming colonialism for the spread of disease? So if instead of colonizing, they would have gone and bought land legally and befriended and played Canasta on Friday nights with them you would have the same problem? Because that would spread disease too.

You missed the point. You thought I was mocking the indians verses Europeans. I was not. I was noting that they didn't have science back then. They had no modern medicine back then.

Who came up with those things? The Europeans did eventually. Often due to getting sick themselves. The French in Africa were particularly good about documenting the causes for sickness and coming up with cures.
Jonathan  - re:  Friday, November 23, 2012 12:00 pm
Will S wrote:
//I don't. I don't see any basis in the New Testament for that at all, and it explicitly contradicts a lot of clear and obvious statements by Jesus and Paul.//

He [Jesus] said to them, "But now one who has a money bag should take it, and likewise a sack, and one who does not have a sword should sell his cloak and buy one."

Why was Jesus telling them to buy a sword? To chop onions?

Wow...I never saw that you made that claim. The disciples misunderstood Jesus, but considering the fact that you know what happened next, you shouldn't misunderstand him too. Jesus was speaking metaphorically (he'd used "sword" metaphorically before - compare Luke 12:49-53 with Matthew 10:34-39).

He made the statement you quote the SAME NIGHT that he was to be captured and killed. He's making it in the context of a direct reference to the suffering servant passage in Isaiah 53, which is obviously about suffering violence willingly, not causing it or fighting back. When the disciples misunderstand him (just like they'd misunderstood when he talked of the bread of the Pharisees), he said "Enough!" Do you actually think he meant that two swords were enough, especially for 12 disciples who often were in separate groups? Do you think he suddenly ignored that he had, by your interpretation, just told every individual without a sword to buy one? And you think that he would tell them to buy swords just hours before disciplining them for using them in the most obvious possible instance? That he would say "All who live by the sword will die by the sword" only a couple hours later just to confuse them? That there is absolutely no record of them using the swords anywhere in Acts because...why exactly?

Here is the explanation for you in a longer and clearer form.

http://totrustingod.blogspot.in/2012/11/circumstantial-evidence-in-gospels-for.html


Will S wrote:
The bible is full of war stories about faithful men of God fighting for just reasons.

Can you quote me any involving Christians? And even just war theorists don't align their theories with the principles of war from the Old Testament, which are completely focused on God's role in preserving his people, to the point that the Israelites often don't even have to fight, are sometimes told to go with extremely reduced forces when they do fight, fight for reasons that are considered acceptable by any serious just war theorist I've read, and fight in ways that violate the execution of just war.


Will S wrote:
//I believe in a God of justice who has promised us that he has control.//

God is in control of our health too. Are you against medicine? Food? God is in control of our salvation, are you against evangelism?

The point of saying that God is in control is to point out that we can never use the ends to justify the means. You cannot justify un-Christian actions just because they fit your assumed ends of justice. It is not our role to separate the weeds from the wheat. It is our role to nurture and care for the wheat AND to love the weeds. God will separate them in the end.


Will S wrote:
God is for justice. Justice requires the sword. Fighting against the unjust. If a violent psycho walks into a school yard and starts punching kids, the man of God tackles him and protects the kids. The coward says, "God is in control" and does nothing.

I agree that the coward does nothing. It takes far more courage to combat evil nonviolently than it does to combat it violently.

In the cases where justice requires violence, God has promised that he can handle it. That's what Romans 12:9-13:10 is about. Paul makes clear that Christians love does no harm, that Christians are not to retaliate because evil cannot be fought with evil, that the proper response to enemies is concrete acts of love. And Paul says that we can do this because God can use even the pagan Roman government to carry out the wrath that he HAD JUST SAID CHRISTIANS WERE NOT TO EMPLOY. Nowhere in there do you see, "but if you want to be part of carrying out vengeful wrath, join in with the pagan Roman government". That would completely contradict what he said both before and after introducing what he could do with government.



Will S wrote:
//I believe that it is absolutely our responsibility to act in justice at all times, and not to perpetuate injustice ourselves. I think it is our responsibility to come to the aid of victims of injustice, and to come to the aid of our enemies with love as well.//

No you don't. You don't believe in coming to the aid of victims of violence. You think we should stand by and watch the bullies beating on the victims because you deny the existence of just war.

That is utterly untrue. I think you should stop claiming you know what other people think. I said nothing of the sort, and I would hazard to guess that if you knew where I was posting from at this very moment, you would realize that I am sacrificing far more of my life to aid the victims of injustice and violence than you can imagine.


Will S wrote:
//But I don't believe it is our responsibility to determine what punishment is due to "evildoers" and to deal it out ourselves. We are not the arbitrators of justice, at least not yet.//

?? So..... the evil doers are just to be set free? Open the prison doors? Is that your strategy?

No, I don't say or believe anything remotely like that anywhere.


Will S wrote:
You may have noticed that I blended domestic concerns with international affairs. I think the same principles apply. The man who watches his kids beaten by an armed robber and refuses to raise his hand is a coward. The same can be said internationally. The country that failed to raise its hand to stop Hitler was the cowardly country.

Funny how you can blend domestic concerns with international affairs so easily with your "what if" scenarios, but you can't seem to realize that Jesus's commands to Christians apply equally truly to both as well.

Almost your whole argument seems to revolve around "what if" scenarios. I suggest you read the following about such arguments:

http://enemylove.com/putting-but-what-if-questions-in-their-proper-place/


You say that not acting in violence means doing nothing. That is so remote from what Jesus preached and what practitioners of nonviolence believe that I have to accept that you know nothing whatsoever about the subject (the alternative is that you do know, but are purposely speaking falsely). I ask that you read a serious book or two about nonviolence. Read the Biblical case (many impressive theologians have written on it) and the practical response. The two websites I linked are both just blogs by young amateurs, but they both contain far more information about the Biblical case for nonviolence than you appear to have been exposed to.
Will S  Friday, November 23, 2012 7:39 pm
Hi Jonathan,

Let me preface this by saying I am in this conversation to discuss ideas. I interpret what you say as a Christian pacifism. If I am wrong there, I apologize. It sounds like, cryptically you mentioned, that you are in the ministry (perhaps in a dangerous place). God bless you for that. I am sure that if you were in the US (Michigan to be exact) we could be good friends. I am in the ministry as well and I try to advance the gospel (non violently).

I argue these things because I think ideas are important and we should all be moving toward the truth. I am open to learning from you and I try to challenge others as well.

So here are my answers.

Regarding the question of godly men in the OT, you responded by looking for a NT example. Are you not reformed? There is no change in the moral law from the OT to the NT. They are the same. Right and wrong in the OT are the same as right and wrong for us.

There is no change in the moral law.

And Jesus was not being metaphorical in when he said that time would come to buy a sword. Israel was about to go to war against Rome. Jesus was warning them about that coming destruction and telling them to protect their homes in a time of turmoil.

//I agree that the coward does nothing. It takes far more courage to combat evil nonviolently than it does to combat it violently.//

Tackling someone is not violent? You say you agree and then advocate cowardice.

//That is utterly untrue. I think you should stop claiming you know what other people think. I said nothing of the sort, and I would hazard to guess that if you knew where I was posting from at this very moment, you would realize that I am sacrificing far more of my life to aid the victims of injustice and violence than you can imagine.//

Jonathan, I have no idea where you are (or who you are). If you are risking life and limb for gospel, you have my great respect. But keep in mind what I was saying. I was not judging your motives but your words. Pacifism is not good and not christian. In many cases it is evil.

The scriptures are full of good men going to war. I know you would like to lop off the 20 year period of the NT and construct a theology based only on that but I think God gave us the whole gospel for a purpose. I think that the OT is the moral guide for the new. I think that to try to get a full moral outlook on the world using the NT is a losing proposition.
Jonathan  Friday, November 23, 2012 9:55 pm
I think it would be good to clarify my "nonviolence" indeed. (I do dislike the word, as it focuses on a negative, but there's aren't adequate replacements - as you've shown, "pacifism" is also distorted.)

The violence that I dispute is any violence that harms the person which it is done to (Romans 13:10). Any violence is wrong if it is not done out of sacrificial agape love for every person involved (Matthew 19:19, Luke 10:27, Romans 13:9, Galatians 5:14, and James 2:8), especially if the person is your enemy (Matthew 5:43-48, Luke 6:27-36, Romans 12:9-21, 1 Corinthians 4:12-13). It must really be what you would ultimately want to be done to yourself in that situation (Matthew 7:12, Luke 6:31). In fact, I think the fate of the other should be considered even more important than your own (Philippians 2:1-11). It can not involve the judgment of someone as beyond love or beyond restoration (Matthew 5:43-48, 7:1-5 13:24-50, Luke 6:37-42, 1 Corinthians 4:5, James 2:13, 4:11-12). It cannot be done in retaliation (Matthew 5:38-42, Luke 6:29-30, Romans 12:17-21, 1 Peter 3:9, Hebrews 10:32-34). To summarize, it must ultimately be aimed at the restoration of the person involved.

I am not a utilitarian. I don't believe you can calculate out good and bad, and then do bad to one person because it's outweighed by the resulting good for others. I am a follower of Christ, which I believe means that one should love all persons, irrespective of whether they've done deeds deserving of it. I try to act accordingly.


p.s. - Jesus clearly told his listeners to flee Jerusalem in the coming violence, not to retaliate (Matthew 24:15-20, Mark 13:14-20). They are told to endure even unto death, and nowhere is it suggested that they should fight back - they are instead to focus on testifying to the truth (see Matthew 24:9, 21-22, Mark 13:9-11, Luke 21:12-19). God's Kingdom is clearly one worth dying for, but it is not partaking in the true Kingdom if you are violently fighting for it (Matthew 26:52, John 18:10-11, John 18:36, Ephesians 6:12, 2 Corinthians 10:3-4). Your interpretation requires Jesus to be saying that 2 swords was enough to defend the disciples from Roman armies. The idea of participating in the violence against the Romans is the very idea they were being judged for (you've read the relevant N.T. Wright, right?). Besides Wright, I find Swartley and Hays to both be very good on this subject.
Jonathan  Friday, November 23, 2012 10:11 pm
I'm looking at what Will S posted at Saturday, November 24, 2012 3:17 am and Saturday, November 24, 2012 3:22 am, and I'm comparing it to what I wrote on Friday, November 23, 2012 6:48 pm, and I'm having trouble seeing how Will's statements were in response to mine.

If we were talking about disease, then it is quite clear that the colonists made disease worse for the natives, not better. Even the diseases they already had got worse (see tuberculosis), and the new diseases were not only introduced, but often intensified by slavery, forced labor, duress under warfare, forced migration, loss of food production, and enormous psychological distress.

But I wasn't even talking about disease in the last post. I was talking about the man-stealing, forced labor, slavery, rape, warfare, violence, and generally inhumane behavior practiced by the colonists. From the sources I've read it was even worse than what they admitted to in their own letters and journals, but I quoted from the letters and journals because that's bad enough by itself and difficult to attribute to bias.

If you don't want to argue that, perhaps we can try a different starting point? Would you at least agree that colonization was bad for the actual people colonized? You keep jumping to events that wouldn't take place for hundreds of years into the future. Can you start off by admitting: when colonization occurred, the lives of the actual people colonized became overwhelmingly worse?
Will S  Saturday, November 24, 2012 8:16 am
Hi Jonathan, I have read Wright (pretty much everything he ever wrote) and I do not think that Wright would say that Jesus was ever advocating a universal policy of pacifism. My reading of Wright is that he would say that Jesus was (as Jeremiah did before him) suggesting that they lay down their arms rather than fight a losing battle. He told them to count the cost of the battle and if they did not have the numbers and resources to ask for terms of peace (Luke 14). In other words, Jesus was acting like an OT prophet warning the people of Israel that God would not honor their rebellion. He was not contradicting the prophets of the OT that sometimes would tell people to fight (see Moses, Gideon, and Samuel). In other words, Jesus was right (as evidenced by the bloody and terrible revolt of 66 AD).... they should not have revolted because God was not with them. They should have turned the other cheek.

As far as justice without violence I am not sure you are consistent. Tackling the man punching kids in a school yard is harming him (probably bruising his ribs, arms, and head) then prosecuting him is harming him as well (would you like to be locked up for a long period of time)?

Actually, that brings to mind CS Lewis and the death penalty. CS Lewis said there was nothing wrong with the death penalty because it was not a violation of "love thy neighbor as thyself" because, Lewis said, I would want to be put to death if I was a murderer.

This I fully agree with. If I was doing violence to innocents, I would want police (or in the case of international affairs) to capture or kill me (if required). If I was guilty of murder, I would turn myself in and would not protest the death penalty.

Sometimes the most loving thing to do to me when I am sinning is to kick me in the pants or to give me a nice smack across the cheek.
Steve Perry  - Thanks Doug!  Friday, November 23, 2012 10:13 pm
Excellent! A reformed pastor who has not theologically holocausted ethnic Jews into a cosmic lottery of election.
Jonathan  - re:  Saturday, November 24, 2012 9:46 am
Will S wrote:
Hi Jonathan, I have read Wright (pretty much everything he ever wrote) and I do not think that Wright would say that Jesus was ever advocating a universal policy of pacifism.

I don't know either way for certain, because he's never come out and said it explicitly one way or the other. But I think that Wright is clear that the people of Israel were failing to act like God's people, not that they were just making an inappropriate cost-benefit analysis. I read Wright's breakdown of the Temple action and what he has to say about lestai, and I he's saying that it was fundamentally against God's purposes for his people, not just misguided for this situation. Everyone else I've seen in the Christian Origins and the Question of God series and in Wright's commentary on current events continues to push me in that direction.


Will S wrote:
As far as justice without violence I am not sure you are consistent. Tackling the man punching kids in a school yard is harming him (probably bruising his ribs, arms, and head) then prosecuting him is harming him as well (would you like to be locked up for a long period of time)?

What you would like in a moment, and actual harm, are two different things. I didn't say that I would tackle him (I might, if it seemed appropriate to the situation, but I've been in similar situations and haven't had to do that yet). But if this "violent psycho" looked like he might seriously injure or kill a child, then of course it would be better for him if I physically restrained him. Having the guilt/sin of murder on his conscience, going to jail for murder, etc. are far worse than being tackled. If I physically stopped someone in a psychotic episode, in love, then I can easily imagine him thanking me afterwards. If I shot him dead and he went to hell, I can see no possibility for that to be a good action from his perspective.


Will S wrote:
Actually, that brings to mind CS Lewis and the death penalty. CS Lewis said there was nothing wrong with the death penalty because it was not a violation of "love thy neighbor as thyself" because, Lewis said, I would want to be put to death if I was a murderer.

I heard a pastor say that once too - don't know if he got it from Lewis or not. But I find it ridiculous. Perhaps there are theological contexts (believers in universal salvation?) where that would work. But if you were in the midst of murderous intent, and believed that being killed in the midst of murderous intent would lead to eternal punishment and eternal separation from God in hell, how could any serious person EVER want that? Not to tie different ideas together too much, but you claim that no Native American could ever want to go back to pre-1492 life, yet that some people could desire eternal hellfire?!? I would want the option that allowed for repentance and reconciliation with God, personally. And I would also want to be stopped from killing anyone. I don't see how those are inconsistent. Both of them clearly appear to be in my best long-term interest.


Will S wrote:
Sometimes the most loving thing to do to me when I am sinning is to kick me in the pants or to give me a nice smack across the cheek.

Es posible. I haven't had to do that, but I won't rule out that it's possible. But only if it is done out of sacrificial love, not hate, and is focused on the restoration on the person involved (You can add to those stipulations even more when you read all the different things that Jesus/Paul/James/John have to say about what true love is). Very few such striking/kicking acts would qualify under those rules. And killing obviously can't be aimed at restoration.
Jonathan  Saturday, November 24, 2012 10:08 am
I forgot one thing on N.T. Wright - this quote is on the back of Richard B. Hays's The Moral Vision of the New Testament.

"This book isn't just a breath of fresh air. It's a hurricane, blowing away the fog of half-understood pseudo-morality and fashionable compromise, and revealing instead the early Christian vision of true humanness and genuine holiness. If this isn't a book for our time, I don't know what is."--N. T. Wright

If you haven't read The Moral Vision of the New Testament, I strongly encourage you to do so. I'd be surprised if Wright could say that quote about that book without believing much more strongly in the wrong of violence than you make him out to believe.



“the Torah is given for a specific period of time, and is then set aside—not because it was a bad thing now happily abolished, but because it was a good thing whose purpose had now been accomplished.”--N.T. Wright, Climax of the Covenant