That Postmillennial Wahoo Time

Written by Douglas Wilson

Friday, 02 July 2010 14:53

Andrew Sandlin has recently posted this about American exceptionalism, and since he mentioned me (lumped in with Obama and McLaren, ouch), I thought I should say something.

Of course I have no problems whatever with an appropriate patriotism, qualified as Andrew qualifies it. I made similar points in the post to which Andrew links. Americans have been greatly blessed, exceptionally blessed, and our gratitude really needs to be commensurate with those blessings.

But why call this honest form of patriotism exceptionalism? The point seems to be that the adjective American modifies the noun exceptionalism, and what we have in this regard is therefore out of the reach of others. I agree with Andrew that the Christian faith must be culturally embedded and embodied. I also believe that it will be -- in every nation. But when that postmillennial wahoo time is finally fulfilled, what will be the status of American exceptionalism then?

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David L. Bahnsen

Friday, July 02, 2010 4:44 pm

I can only speak for this American exceptionalist (moi), but that postmillennial conviction ADDS to my American exceptionalism - WHEN (not if) all nations arrive, us exceptionalists believe that America will have been the city on a hill that led much of it there. God's use of America in this capacity, should it prove to be His providential will, will enhance her exceptional nature, even more than now.

Shayne McAllister

Friday, July 02, 2010 4:49 pm

So David, do you see a danger that America could replace Christ in our hopes in affections about how God does end up saving the nations? BTW. Any relation to Greg Bahnsen? Just curious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Bahnsen

Shayne McAllister

Friday, July 02, 2010 4:53 pm

In other words, could America become an idol that where we can hope in it more than (or similarly to) Christ. It seems to be a serious problem for many evangelicals who get worked up about America being "destroyed." The destruction of America, presumably by Obama, can bring out fear and anger. I think that fear and anger is a symptom of America being an idol with patriotism is out of balance with faith in Christ. Most of us react badly when our idols are attacked.

David L. Bahnsen

Friday, July 02, 2010 6:02 pm

I am not saying it couldn't happen - I would just say that I have never known anyone who did that (made America an idol). I think people react certain ways any time they see things they care for attacked (the institutions of church and family also come to mind), but I wouldn't be particularly worried about that representing some form of idolatry. As an aside, I am related to Greg Bahnsen (his son). Thanks for your comments!

Shayne McAllister

Friday, July 02, 2010 6:11 pm

I've seen it happen quite a bit. I see the dangers in much the same way Dr. Wilson does, even though I am not Postmillenial. I was an intern in DC for a conservative family values coalition, and many of the folks in other Christian conservative groups seemed to throw all their hopes and dreams on GW Bush, or various GOP lawmakers. It was creepy at times.

BTW, I studied your father's work as a Political Science student at a Christian university. We studied Beyond Good Intentions. He was helpful to thing some things through, though I didn't end up anywhere close to a Reconstructionist.

Doug Sowers - On the other hand

Friday, July 02, 2010 6:35 pm

When I hear people like Sean Hannity say things like, "America is the greatest Country in the history of the world"! And why?? Because it was founded on conservative principles, I want to say;

Huh?! O really Sean?? First of all, how can you make such an absolute pronouncement? The reason America has any greatness, is because God had mercy on this land, and the people in it; period end of story..... And because of his mercy, we came up with wise principles. Not the other way around. It was allllll gift......

And since it was all gift, when I hear Sean go off on one of his idolatrous tirades, I can't help but agree with Shayne. It wasn't the principles that made us great! It was where those principles were derived from. The law giver himself.

I know David is one smart cookie, just like his Dad, whom I love and respect.

(I was even listining to Greg Bhansens teaching on Revealationsw, today!!) And I subscribe to Davids' newsletter, yet I believe that Sean goes way too far. BTW, I do like Sean; I just think he goes to far.

Rest in his completed work,

Doug

Doug Sowers

Friday, July 02, 2010 6:38 pm

And I am a reconstructionist!!!! Which is just another way of saying, let's fulfill the Great Commission!!!

Douglas Wilson

Friday, July 02, 2010 6:53 pm

David, thanks for commenting. The stumbling block is the word exceptional. If we are exceptional on the basis that you describe, then we would have to say we believe in English exceptionalism, because our common law liberty came from there. But now we have two exceptional nations, and there are more lined up behind England. And if we decline into apostasy and judgment, there will be others coming behind us, who will contribute more to the cause of the fulfillment of the Great Commission than we have. And so on. Why not just say that we have been greatly blessed? Blessings and curses are a covenantal category. Exceptional status (for any nation other than Israel) isn't.

David L. Bahnsen

Friday, July 02, 2010 8:47 pm

Pastor - I concur as it pertains to England, but think they are more hell-bent on forfeiting their exceptionalism. But this is an area I agree with Walter Russell Mead, who sub-titled his "Gid and Gold" masterpiece, " Britain, America, and the Making of the Modern World".

I believe words are defined by the context in which they are used and I think the context around the current discussion of "exceptionalism"
is referencing something quite benign.

But in a covenantal context there is nothing to disagree with in what you have said - an exceptionalist like me has to embrace America's culpability for her decisions. My gratitude for America's exceptional heritage and optimism in her future does not (and can not) negate her covenantal duty.

James B. Jordan

Saturday, July 03, 2010 11:41 am

My own opinion it is undeniable that the USA is "different," but what makes it different? For one thing, it has had a more self-consciously Christian milieu, one though mixed with myths about the Roman Republic and a generous mix of conservative Freemasonry. But for another, the US is like a giant sanctuary city, a giant city of refuge, in which people have had to tolerate other kinds of people (Christians and Jews, originally). No other nation is like this, since other nations have an ethnicity in which other people live as exceptions. In the US, everybody is an immigrant and all are exceptions. This, IMO, is what has given rise to a different kind of culture. "Ethnic cleansing" is unthinkable here.

It is the Bible that teaches the principle of asylum. Churches used to function as sanctuaries, but the Protestants tended to move against that. What replaced this was the United States, a "nation with the soul of a church," as a large asylum for Western civilization's unwanted -- and later for others as well.

For the rest, I cannot see any difference of substance between Douglas and Andrew. On this issue. At least.

Frank Golubski - How is Doug Wilson "wrong"?

Friday, July 02, 2010 10:54 pm

David,

In his blog post, Andrew Sandlin said Doug Wilson was "wrong" for "warning about" American exceptionalism. I think Andrew is guilty -- whether intentionally or unintentionally -- of equivocation. (Unfortunately, Andrew is too sharp a guy for me to believe it is unintentional.)

If one searches Blog & Mablog for the term "exceptionalism," one will find Doug's warnings and see that he makes a vital distinction between true and false American exceptionalism.

And that he warns against the false kind. My favorite example is his July 4, 2007 post "Ordinary as Brown Dirt":

http://tinyurl.com/279xfvw

That said, I have two questions for you:

Do you agree with Andrew that Doug's warnings about false American exceptionalism are "wrong"?

And if so, how?

Okay, one more question: Can you ask Andrew to pop in and defend/elaborate on his assertion that Doug's warning about false American Exceptionalism is wrong?

(I'd ask him myself, but he does not offer his readers the opportunity to comment on his posts.)

Frank Golubski - Proud vs. humble exceptionalism

Friday, July 02, 2010 11:07 pm

Re-reading "Ordinary as Brown Dirt," it occurs to me that the simplest way to distinguish between true and false American exceptionalism boils down to two words: humility vs. pride.

A humble nation looks to Christ as savior.

A proud nation looks to itself.

Here is probably the clearest example I have ever seen of the latter:

Dennis Prager Q&A at the University of Denver:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNUc8nuo7HI

Prager has reason to see America as the "indispensable nation" -- the world's savior: he doesn't believe in Jesus the Christ.

But Christians Sarah Palin and Hugh Hewitt have no excuse.

Gianni

Saturday, July 03, 2010 11:32 am

Shayne, it wasn't Bahnsen who wrote Beyond Good Intentions.

Frank Golubski - Interventionist economics BAD ...

Sunday, July 04, 2010 11:02 pm

Andrew Sandlin writes: "For conservatives, the problem is our collective sin: legalized abortion, rampant pornography and divorce, religious pluralism, homosexual rights, interventionist economics and so forth."

For more than a few of us Christian conservatives, a big problem is America's interventionist foreign policy.

Whereas for neoconservatives like Sandlin and David Bahnsen, America's interventionist foreign policy isn't a problem -- it's one of the solemn responsibilities of so exceptional and indispensable a nation.

To make matters worse, interventionist neoconservatives tend to look at us non-interventionist paleoconservatives as anti-patriotic America haters.

So tell me, neocons: How is interventionist economics considered sinful, while interventionist foreign policy is considered righteous?

Polites - American State Evangelism

Tuesday, July 06, 2010 12:30 pm

Frank,
Don't think of it so much as foreign policy as state evangelism. We're spreading the good news of democracy far and wide.

Frank Golubski - American=Christian=American

Tuesday, July 06, 2010 1:07 pm

If American exceptionalism is indeed Christian exceptionalism (as Sandlin asserts), then shouldn't Christians around the world revere — or at least have patriotic feelings for — America?

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