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Theology - Auburn Avenue Stuff
Written by Douglas Wilson   
Tuesday, 23 November 2010 07:13

Last week I commented briefly on this post by Scott Clark. Since that time I have thought about it some more, and wanted to make some follow-up comments.

That the whole thing was about as out of line as it gets was revealed in how Scott Clark has handled the comments afterwards. When the original post appeared, it was plain that he was talking about Moscow, but he didn't come right out and say that. Deniability was preserved. As the comments opened, one honest individual -- no friend of the FV -- asked if that was really necessary. Clark's response revealed overtly that he was talking about Moscow, and shortly afterwards, the comments were closed. Now all the comments that had been previously allowed have been removed.

But while the comments were up, Clark said something like this: whether or not his cautions and warnings applied to me straight across was for "others to say." In other words, Clark is not competent to say that I am to be compared to a mass murderer. He is, however, competent to insinuate it. He also knows how to turn the comments feature off on his blog -- he doesn't like being called to account for his words there any more than he would be willing to debate a proposition of theology -- that is, if it were the kind of debate in which the other guy was allowed to talk.

So we see that when it comes to cultural analysis, Clark is auguring in. For Westminster West the whole thing is beyond sad.



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Randy Compton  Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:30 am
I don't know you, Pastor Wilson, but I have read much of your writing. You have encouraged and helped me tremendously. I just don't get how someone who has read you could confuse your voice with that of a mass murderer. You are one of the most gospel-preaching, life-affirming, joy-encouraging voices out there. For Clark to make this mistake borders on "calling black white and white black."
Thanks for your faithfulness as you persevere through slander. God bless you and your family.
jay niemeyer  Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:25 pm
Amen, Randy!
Rod Story  - Be willing to stand on your comments, Mr Clark  Tuesday, November 23, 2010 8:09 am
I will verify what Pastor is posting. I read Scott Clark's post (whom I don't know) which shockingly insinuated that Christ Church in Moscow and its associates where cultic. However, what was insinuated in the post was clearly said in the comments, that Mr Clark's post was indeed about Doug Wilson. I later attempted to show the comments to my wife, but the 8 or so posts had been removed.

We came to Moscow for work, but have been please greatly to discover godly families, lead by earnest men seeking to understand and apply God's precious truths. While Pastor Wilson clearly has skill and boldness in communicating these truths, it is by no means a one man show nor a lock-step army. Actually, the loving disagreement on minor doctrines here is quite refreshing.

Mr Clark particularly took aim at courtship; I am deeply saddened that such a beautiful and culturally transformational practice would be held up as sign of a cult. I would be interested in his biblically based argument as to why fathers guarding theirs daughters and raising their sons to be men is drinking koolaid.

Finally, this pissing war about whom is 'more reformed' is simply rubbish. Truth is like fresh water, whether you've just stubbled across it 20 yrs ago as a congregation, or whether you have 500 yrs of heritage to stand upon.
Bert Perry  Tuesday, November 23, 2010 8:32 am
I'm not a Muscovite like many, but having followed our gracious host's work for over a decade now, I must admit that I am now a mind numbed robot who thoughtlessly agrees with everything he says.....

.....except for the fact that I cheerfully differ with him on certain issues. Sorry, gracious host, no cool-aid for me, but a non-poisoned microbrew on the other hand....

Never mind. :^)
Daniel Foucachon  Tuesday, November 23, 2010 8:39 am
I read the comments when they were "fresh" as well.

In another place, Clark made reference to Moscow and Doug Wilson as the Communist regime and told me I should "get out while I can" before the "wall goes up". The comments are probably deleted now.

I made several posts on Heidelblog questioning Clark's posts. Things like, "I'm not sure if Doug Wilson said that" or "That's out of context," or "where did you get that?" You know, honest questions that SHOULD be easy to answer...he always gave me a link to something he wrote that didn't address my question - mostly summaries of why the FV is wrong.

He got tired of my questions, and banned me from his blog. I emailed him asking him why, and his response was that the FV has been declared un-orthodox by the "reformed denominations" and that therefore there was nothing to argue about. Also that he had spent enough time researching it to know it is false, therefore he didn't want to argue anymore...or hear our arguments.
Helvetica  Tuesday, November 23, 2010 11:27 am
I admit that I did not read beyond the title of the Heidelblog post nor have I been following the debate much - however, comparing someone to Jonestown was the most ridiculous thing I ever read. How does someone even connect the two things??? Really weird.

Now, I grew up in an actual cult, mind you (a weird offshoot of militant Pentecostalism).

jon Erik Ween  Tuesday, November 23, 2010 12:26 pm
Well now, DW does have a big bushy beard, lives in IDAHO and started his own ___ (fill in the blank), so there is SOMETHING unusual going on here. But then, again, camel-hair and locust were never mainstream, and therefore easy targets. What floors me is the vitriol to be seen (without pointing ANY fingers, you know who you are). Where do Christians get off being hostile? Has anyone heard of mortifying the sin nature? Loving your enemy? Hmm, WWJD? Yeah, I know, not a Latin quote, but wouldn't He pass the wine and ask us to chill out? Beams and motes and all that. Granted all rigour is not mortis, but not all argument (and doctrine) is written in stone (pun intended). Can't we just all get along?
Michael Pasarilla  Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:02 pm
Just to confirm what Pastor Wilson said, I, too, read the comments and Pastor Wilson's entry is accurate.
Adam Masterson  Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:56 pm
The ministry you have in Moscow and beyond is a blessing to the Church. Keep keepin' on!
Andrew Isker  - Are you sure he is not talking about John Calvin?  Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:12 pm
Just reading Clark's article, could you not insert John Calvin's name in who he is 'vaguely' describing?

"These leaders do not submit themselves to the government and discipline of the historic [Roman Catholic] Churches because in that case, they would become ordinary ministers among other ministers and elders, instead of a de facto heads of their own movements. Unfortunately, since many of those attracted to such leaders come from outside the historic, [Roman Catholic] Churches, they lack perspective or awareness of historic [Catholic] practice... Over the years, it has not been terribly difficult for strong personalities to gather up such folks, rather than directing them to the historic [Roman Catholic] faith as expressed in the [Catholic Councils, and Papal Bulls], and rather than joining historic [Roman Catholic] Churches, to form their own congregations, schools, and movements organized around one or two strong personalities with strong, distinctive theological views and social programs"

"It is common in such circles to identify the Reformed faith with a certain, strongly-held, social program."

Which certainly could not describe 16th century Geneva. :wink:



Rob Steele  Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:35 pm
I know next to nothing about Scott Clark so I can't say in his case but whenever I've seen accusations like this before, it has usually been a pretty clear case of projection. Liberals accused conservatives of doing what liberals would do as soon as they had the power, that sort of thing. Name-callers usually tell you more about themselves than about the targets of their outrage.
Oscar A. Fernandez  Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:50 pm
"These leaders do not submit themselves to the government and discipline of the historic Reformed Churches because in that case, they would become ordinary ministers among other ministers and elders, instead of a de facto heads of their own movements."

"The gears of consistory, classis, and synod (session, presbytery, and GA) grind slowly."

"As leaders of their own “churches” and movements, these charismatic leaders are typically accountable not to a classis or presbytery but to a select group of cohorts. There may be the appearance of accountability but these groups have typically lacked the substance thereof."

Objectively speaking, is there any room for asking if there is truth to any of the above quotes? Or, maybe I should ask, who are the “select group of cohorts” which Clark refers to?
Eric Stampher  - Hope he's a bit right  Tuesday, November 23, 2010 8:56 pm
Good question, Oscar. Further -- might it be biblical to not submit to "those reputed to be leaders" (as someone once said).

How about walking on the old episcopal highway, showing yourselves answerable to cohorts selected because they answer to Christ?
Brad Donovan  Tuesday, November 23, 2010 10:08 pm
I find it funny that he praises slow-moving Church gov't, and insinuates that ours is fast. Ohhhhh, very devilish of us. He must have read the presbytry minutes.
morgan  - oh, i see  Wednesday, November 24, 2010 9:45 am
I was born the day of the Jonestown massacre, so that must be why I enjoy so much of your writing.
Konstantin & Megan Lieder  Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:29 am
"These leaders do not submit themselves to the government and discipline of the historic Reformed Churches because in that case, they would become ordinary ministers among other ministers and elders, instead of a de facto heads of their own movements."

Good gracious! I'm super glad that the Reformers themselves chose not to submit themselves to the government and discipline of THEIR churches. We wouldn't have any Reformed churches to mess with, then, would we? Praise God Martin Luther, Zwingli, Hubmaier, Huss, etc., were not ordinary ministers (whatever that means).

Mr. Wilson -- It seems like it is always a good sign to have such opposition. I wouldn't respect you so much if you didn't. :) Megan
Emanon  - Read the Comments  Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:29 am
You can still find the comments as they were saved in the Google Cache:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:yCQIHxaBlMYJ:heidelblog.wordpress.com/2008/12/17/jonestown-reformed-movement/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk

Nothing on the internet stays hidden.
Jane Dunsworth  Wednesday, November 24, 2010 12:36 pm
Wow, it's like they aren't just saying that stuff to be snarky, they actually BELIEVE it. That's even worse.
Steve Reed  Thursday, November 25, 2010 4:56 am
Speaking as the token representative from the Anabaptist sector (note the capital 'A'!), I read Bro. Wilson every day and find the site to be lively and edifying. I've seen nothing here that justifies anybody throwing around a word like "cult."
jon Erik Ween  Thursday, November 25, 2010 9:00 am
Thanks to Emanon for digging up the googlecach. That was helpful. I'm assuming that nobody has actually TALKED to Clark about all this. Although the allusion to Jonestown seems weird (I'm not sure how much Clark has actually listens to DW, I think he would find DW mostly spot-on as I do), and although taking down and closing a discussion thread violates blog-ettiquette, I was not nearly as alarmed about the post as some seemed to be. One would have to consider it part of the pluralism and independent thinking that DW seems to endorse. So, we have to take as good as we give. God is sovereign. All things work out for good for those who love Him and He chastises those He loves with whatever instrument He deems fit (even the Clarks of the world). So it is for us to see the Lord's hand in whatever is said and done and how we might draw as close to Him as we can. Moaning and groaning about it isn't the way to go.
Cliff Schroeder  - Sheesh...  Friday, November 26, 2010 7:47 am
...would somebody please go to the kitchen and get Mr. Clark a strong personality?! Maybe if he had his own he'd stop complaining about everyone else's!
Jane Dunsworth  Monday, November 29, 2010 12:40 pm
Well, Mr. Ween, I think we're all for spirited debate and give and take, but nonetheless, some things cross the line and need to be called out for what they are. I don't believe that problem causing the outrage here is that Mr. Clark strongly disagrees with Mr. Wilson, it's that he compared him with Jim Jones and his congregation with Jones' cultists. (And sorry, Valerie, I'm just NOT going to learn to type Jones's.) I hope you don't really consider that kind of abusive and untruthful language just a manifestation of healthy pluralism within the Reformed community.

However, I do agree that it is all in God's hands and should not cause undue distress. Still, that is not the same as letting it pass without comment.