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A Vine-Laden Discussion PDF Print E-mail
Engaging the Culture - Book Review
Written by Douglas Wilson   
Wednesday, 04 November 2009 01:39

Here are my notes from a discussion we had yesterday at the NSA grad student forum. As expected, the discussion with Peter there answered most of these questions -- the only place where a disagreement simpliciter occurs is in my third point below, on the nature of typology. So here are my notes, and sorry if they seem cryptic in places . . .

Of course, Peter is fantastically learned, and a lot of fun to read. I found most of this book very helpful indeed, and these points of questioning and/or critique should not be taken as a rejection of the argument as a whole. In fact, if I don't say something specific here, agreement elsewhere can just be assumed. And if I do say something, that does not mean disagreement necessarily. In most cases, I think my questions are simply calls for more amplification, along with an urging to what I would consider an adornment to any book, which would be to call postmodernists a lot more names -- Foucault and his vermin, that sort of thing.

Husk and Kernel:

I think that the husk/kernel thing needs a lot more development. "As we also saw, Longenecker's position accepts the husk/kernel model that is at the heart of modernist, post-Kantian hermeneutics" (p. 36). But it is also at the heart of every legitimate attempt to translate the Scriptures. The authoritas divina duplex was something worked out by Reformed scholastics well before Myer. Could it not be said that the real problem with Myer, Kant, and all that crowd is not that they separate the kernel from the husk (which every Bible translator also has to do), but rather that they get the kernel all wrong? Put another way, can I practice a "hermeneutic of the letter" with my English Bible? And if I can, how? In short, which letters?

An Authoritative Book:

"The Bible is closer to poetry than to a scientific manual, and the biblical writers' use of words is more like that of poets than of linguists or scientists" (p. 108). Well, yes and no. In one sense it must be read as poetry and literature, because that is what it mostly is. But moderns and postmoderns have been trained to read poetry and literature as a form of private edification and appreciation -- as in a literature appreciation course. Scientific manuals are closer to ancient poetry than modern poetry is to the extent that they are authoritative -- they tell you what you must do.

"Just as clearly, these multiple structures do not render the music incoherent. On the contrary, they make the cantata almost unbearably rich" (p. 157). This sense of rich is exactly right, and applies to the obedient Christian in the pew, seeking edification. But what readings are we willing to excommunicate someone for refusing to accept? What kinds of readings can be used with authority?

Typological Promises:

Another issue that needs amplification is this one. On the one hand, Peter says that "typology is deliberate foreshadowing" (p. 64). This is dead on. Jesus read the Scriptures rightly before the fact, and showed His disciples their failure to read the types beforehand (Luke 24:44). But how can this be reconciled with the following?

"Once Jesus rises from the dead, though, that earlier event becomes something more specific. It becomes a promise of Jesus, the crucified and risen Messiah, a type and foreshadowing of the great deliverance of Golgotha . . ." (pp. 44, emphasis mine). How can something become a foreshadowing after the fact?

"Similarly, when 'out of Egypt I called My Son' transfers from Hosea to Matthew, the original sense remains" (p. 64, emphasis mine). But wasn't the typological prediction part of the original sense?

"Reading Hosea in the light of the event of Jesus is, in principle, just as ordinary as reading Darwin in the light of Nazism, The Descent of Man in the light of Mein Kampf. The event of Darwin's text becomes a different event, with a new meaning, in the aftermath of Nazism" (p. 74).

So the question here would be -- is typology prophetic? And related to this, does typology require inspiration, or "double authorship?" Is anything fundamentally different happening in our readings of Hosea and Sophocles? "But their reading was also based on their conviction that Jesus is the key to all human history, culture, art, and literature" (p. 180).

"There is no such thing as a timeless text, or a timeless interpretation of a text" (p. 208). Point taken, but we need to work out (in much greater detail) what this does to prediction, promise, and faith. The Israelites in the wilderness drank from Christ, and not from a Rock which future generations of Christians would read as though it had been Christ.

Ditches Past and Future:

"Following Nietzsche, postmodern their has challenged Enlightenment ocularcentrism . . . Following Nietzsche, postmodern theory has attempted to revive the wisdom of Oedipus, the wisdom of the blinded" (p. 191). "John's repeated emphasis on the Pharisaic knowledge begs for a Foucauldian reading" (p. 199). Does anything in Scripture ever beg for a Cartesian reading? I would be more comfortable with the occasional Foucaldian reading if such were interspersed with Cartesian readings, Belgic readings, and Al Mohler readings.

Anyway, there it is. We had ourselves a vine-laden discussion.



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Last Updated on Wednesday, 04 November 2009 01:39
 
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Remy  Wednesday, November 04, 2009 3:41 am
Well, yes and no. In one sense it must be read as poetry and literature, because that is what it mostly is. But moderns and postmoderns have been trained to read poetry and literature as a form of private edification and appreciation -- as in a literature appreciation course. Scientific manuals are closer to ancient poetry than modern poetry is to the extent that they are authoritative -- they tell you what you must do.

To say that the Bible is "mostly poetry" turns the Bible into a series of genres, which is not the meaning of the quote. The activity of the reader is closer to what is required in reading poetry than scientific manuals. And while I think it's debatable how moderns and postmoderns are trained to read poetry, to say that "Scientific manuals are closer to ancient poetry than modern poetry is to the extent that they are authoritative" is not (though I suppose it depends on what you mean by "authoritative"). If you mean, "things presented to be done" then modern poetry is far more "authoritative" than ancient poetry. If you only mean to say that scientific manuals matter to society in the same way that ancient poetry used to and modern poetry does not, then I might agree, but isn't that why the book was written?


Melissa Dow  Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:18 am
I may have missed it, but what is the book under discussion?
Matthew N. Petersen  Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:24 am
I too would like an answer to Melissa's question.
Kelly Kerr  Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:35 am
It sounds like it's Leithart's book Deep Exegesis.
Doug Shuffield  Wednesday, November 04, 2009 5:04 am
So the question here would be -- is typology prophetic? And related to this, does typology require inspiration, or "double authorship?"

I have struggled over this question for years. The best thing I can come up with is that typology is not specifically predictive prophetic as say, Daniel's 70 weeks are specific predictive prophecy. By the way, I have often wondered why there is no New Testament exegesis on Daniel 9 as proof of Jesus as Messiah. Oh, well... Typology is God's way of replaying thematic elements which point to their ultimate fulfillment in Christ and can only be discerned after the fact or through divine inspiration. Otherwise, we are hopelessly adrift in a sea of speculation where everything can become a typology. This is the way many people transport prophecies fulfilled in the 1st century into our time by appealing to the idea of initial fulfillment as typology giving us a "double fulfillment" just as Matthew does with Hosea. There is no reason to believe that Hosea was a specific predictive prophecy, but a simple theme that is "filled up" in Christ.


-Doug
Douglas Wilson  Wednesday, November 04, 2009 5:06 am
Oops. It is Deep Exegesis. It was originally in the title of the post, but then I changed it. Sorry.
Douglas Wilson  Wednesday, November 04, 2009 5:09 am
Remy, scientific manuals are authoritative in that they require obedience and discipline disobedience. We don't allow poetry and typology to serve that way. But if we believe the interpretation is sure, why not? Think of it this way. Imagine a young man disciplined by a church for getting a tattoo, and the reason given was that he was already tattooed in his baptism. Or a young woman is disciplined for joining the Marines, and the reason given is that we are not to boil a kid in its mother's milk? What would happen then, and why?
Phillip Ross  Wednesday, November 04, 2009 5:14 am
While I haven't read the book, I was struck with the paragraph:

"Once Jesus rises from the dead, though, that earlier event becomes something more specific. It becomes a promise of Jesus, the crucified and risen Messiah, a type and foreshadowing of the great deliverance of Golgotha . . ." (pp. 44, emphasis mine). How can something become a foreshadowing after the fact?

Foreshadowing before the fact is mere speculation, or hope. It doesn't actually become foreshadowing until the thing foreshadowed actually shows up in history.

I don't know if this will make sense in the context, but maybe.
Phillip Ross  Wednesday, November 04, 2009 5:16 am
Hmm...

My paragraphs in the Comments window were lost. I'm new here.

Do I need to format my responses with HTML?
Douglas Wilson  Wednesday, November 04, 2009 5:30 am
Philip, yes, HTML for now. But we are working on that.
oldfatslow  Wednesday, November 04, 2009 5:38 am
No, you don't!



I'm just getting the hang

of this.


ofs
Jane Dunsworth  Wednesday, November 04, 2009 5:47 am
"It doesn't actually become foreshadowing until the thing foreshadowed actually shows up in history. "

That's what I took it to mean. The earlier event "becomes a foreshadowing" when the event it foreshadows, shows up. In that way, it is a foreshadowing to us, but not really to the original readers, at least in a way they could grasp. To them it was more of a hint. To someone who grew up knowing of the earlier event and lived at the time of the resurrection, and had the insight to connect the two, it must have been a WHAMMO!

AdamR  Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:41 am
Having read the book, the point Leithart is making on the foreshadowing deal is that the full effect of an historical event cannot be truly known until well after it has taken place. I took him to say that historical events are not exhaustive until later interpretation reveals all of its implications. He uses the example of the 30 years war. Five years in, it couldn't have been the 30 years war. Only a view from years after the events took place could the fullness of the event be known. And, obviously, since all events are tied to one another until the last day, we can't know the true fullness fullness of the event until then.


With regards to foreshadowing then, I took Leithart's take on foreshadowing/revealing to be aligned along this axis; the thing which is foreshadowed is implicit in the event itself, and the second event later in history which the first pointed to unveiled something which was already there. The first event which contained the foreshadow could not be known until that later point in history. The later event changes our understanding of the first event, but unearths that which was always there.

Michael Bull  Wednesday, November 04, 2009 8:51 am
Re the authority thing:


Good point, but I don't think Paul was confused about this. When he put the Galatians on trial, Exhibit A was Old Testament typology. As Warren Gage observes, how many modern evangelicals would accept an argument from typology to prove a doctrine? For Paul, it was a concrete argument.

J. R. Schuiling  Wednesday, November 04, 2009 2:43 pm
Is Peter categorically distinguishing typology and prophecy? And are there chimeras of a sort? Say, the "sign of Jonah"?
J. R. Schuiling  Wednesday, November 04, 2009 2:51 pm
RE: Michael

Paul establishes his point in the Epistle to the Galatians doctrinally before appealing to the type. Even then his "typology" is firmly grounded in the reality of the historical circumstances.
Douglas Wilson  Wednesday, November 04, 2009 3:33 pm
Michael, sorry. I was probably being too coy. I am not arguing against using typology authoritatively -- I am in favor of that. My argument is that many who are attracted to typology today treat it as a form of entertainment or lit crit. But if discipline from real pastors were to be applied on the basis of typology, much of typology's current fan base would run back to mama, which is to say, a strict historical/grammatical hermeneutic.
Matthew N. Petersen  Thursday, November 05, 2009 2:18 am
Pr. Wilson,



But isn't that partially because the things we find in typology are just less authoritative? We wouldn't want to excommunicate someone for not believing in double election, even if we think a good historical/grammatical hermeneutic establishes it; but we would excommunicate someone for rejecting Nicea.
Eric Stampher  Thursday, November 05, 2009 11:48 am
So many here say the OT dudes could not have known they were looking at types, or if those "first events" had given them the inkling that they were spying a shadow of something more substantial, well they just had to be stuck out in left field. But then there's Apollos, practically seeing most of faces on the pages, just not able to put names to them.
Jeff Moss  Friday, November 06, 2009 2:55 am
Or a young woman is disciplined for joining the Marines, and the reason given is that we are not to boil a kid in its mother's milk?


Well, at the very least this church is obligated to publicly explain its doctrine of the magisterium. Presumably the young woman in question doesn't interpret Deut. 14:21 that way, right? How many Protestant churches have a well-formulated theological argument for the elders' interpretation of Scripture being more authoritative than individual members' interpretation? The issue here is not so much whether typology is authoritative, as what authority the church has to interpret and then enforce it.

Xon Hostetter  Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:10 am
Quick question for anyone who knows. Does Leithart interact with Jonathan Edwards' view of typology at all in the book?
Xon Hostetter  Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:12 am
Oh, and AdamR, it's like Augustine's famous line, right?



The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.