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Despite an Occasional Verbal Flourish PDF Print E-mail
Atheism and Apologetics - Doors of the Sea
Written by Douglas Wilson   
Thursday, 14 August 2008 16:07

The second part of Hart's book is his positive statement of "Divine Victory." The first section of this second half sets the pieces on the board for us.

"To behave or live according to nature is for some of us the very definition of sagacity, sanity, or even virtue" (p. 45).

This is what the ancient pagans sought to do, and what erstwhile pagans today think they are doing. But for most of us, in the backwash of modernity, the natural world around us remains "a disenchanted world" (p. 46). Following the mandate of Francis Bacon, we have dedicated ourselves to mastery over the natural world. We now have the luxury "of being able to render the 'natural' at once remote and benign" (p. p. 47). But of course, every once in a while, nature "surprises us by vaulting past our defenses" (p. 47).

Paganism sought to live in harmony with the world, with the natural world as the standard, and see Aristotle. Modernity began to think of the natural world as simply so much stuff that needed to be conquered. In contrast to these approaches, Christianity revealed the world "to be the work of one creative and redemptive will" (p. 48). Christians did not deny that the cosmos was animate, but insisted that all the animae were creatures.

If Christians had remained steadfast to this "discarded image," a lot of compromises with modernity that have continually plagued us since would have left us unaffected. From the age of the cosmos to the nature of it, we allow secularists to dictate to us what is and what is not acceptable. Hart genuflects to modernity himself -- "the extraordinary fecundity and beauty of the northeastern rim of the Indian Ocean is in large part a result of countless millennia of volcanic activity and tectonic strife" (p. 52). Countless millennia, aye.

But Christians began to surrender piecemeal to the dictates of Enlightenment deism, and did not dig their last redoubt around the contents of the Apostles' Creed until the 1920's here in America. So a lot of Christians have the same basic view of nature that the evolutionists do -- and Hart is included in that number. But he still describes the problem well.

"What had never yet arisen in imagination was 'nature' in the modern sense: a closed causal continuum, conceived (by theists) as the intricate artifice of a God whose transcendence is a kind of absence, or (by atheists) as a purely fortuitious event concerning which the absence of any God is the only 'transcendent' truth" (p. 49)

In other words, the theists and atheists now differ about the clockmaker. They have come to agree on the clock.

"The problem, of course, with constructing a theology around the bare casual relation between a cosmic machine and its divine artisan is that any analogy between the two becomes extremely perilous for the theologian. What sort of craftsman, after all, do the internal mechanisms of nature declare" (p. 49)?

They declare, of course, a genius of infinite and glorious aesthetic majesty. But if we look away from the frozen portraits and landscapes in order to see the thing in motion, as though it were a story, which it is, something else intrudes. This glory is "everywhere attended . . . by death" (p. 50).

"It is as if the entire cosmos were somehow predatory, a single great organism nourishing itself upon the death of everything to which it gives birth, creating and devouring all things with a terrible and impressive majesty. Nature squanders us with such magnificent prodigality that it is hard not to think that something enduringly hideous and abysmal must abide in the depths of life" (p. 50).

Hart wants to argue that the Christian is not required to see nature "as we understand it; in fact, it renders the very category of 'nature' mysterious, alters it, elevates it -- judges and redeems it" (p. 54). This is all quite striking, but Hart does not explain in any detail what he means by it, and he has already skated right by some difficult bits in the story.

Now I need to say here that I believe him to be exactly right about the clockwork theists and their collision with the clockwork atheists. The world is not a clock; the world is a story. But -- and this is the key point -- the world is not a story told by the creature. It is a story enacted by the creature, but not a story told by us. God is the one who put every comma on every page. Every hair of every head in the history of the world is numbered, and every scale on the back of every fish shimmered and glinted the way it did because of God's creative Word before all worlds. And this is why Hart's criticisms of the mechanism world do not apply at all to the story world.

And further, his attempts to mumble through parts of the story that he believes will scare the kids are susceptible to criticisms from the likes of Ivan that would shut this whole discussion down.

Allow me to intrude an autobiographical comment here. Despite the big words I use from time to time -- words like delicatessen and basketball -- I really am a simple man. My big words are nothing like Hart's -- we in the modern world do not with amulets and rites hold numinous critters "at bay with apotropaic charms" (p. 46), and "we do not walk in terror of delitescent fiends" (p. 46). Well, I certainly don't. So despite an occasional verbal flourish from me, pirouetting along the semantic banister of the mezzanine of life, I try to keep things generally simple. Why is this relevant?

In reply to Voltaire's taunt about whether volcanoes were entirely necessary, Hart responds by saying:

"if one grants the deist his watchmaker God, the answer seems inevitable. Of course, volcanoes are necessary; but for them, and the tectonic instabilities needed to create them, and the seismic shocks that follow from these instabilities, and the oceans of fire that form the earth's mantle, the planet almost certainly could not produce and sustain the atmosphere that incubates and shelters terrestial life" (pp. 51-52).

Please note that Hart is not saying that volcanoes were necessary. He is saying that they were necessary for the watchmaker God, which is of course transparently false, even on the principles of good deistic watchmaking. Whatever could prevent an omnipotent God from making a decent atmosphere without blowing up a bunch of stuff?

But let's return to my simple-mindedness. I am here in this fallen world where things can go terribly wrong, and as a Christian I am in a covenanted and personal relationship with God of this fallen world. And when something in my life is going off the rails, like the psalmist, I would talk to God about it, and if I have learned to speak to Him as a Christian, I will speak to Him as one who has the power to do something about that problem, no matter how great it is -- tsunamis, hurricanes, volcanoes, wars, genocides, or all of them together. This means I must speak to Him in such a way as to prevail upon Him to exercise that power and deliver me, or in such a way as to reconcile myself to my role in this difficult part of the story He is telling, trusting the later outcome to Him. There are no other biblical options. My prayers will either move God to act, or will move me to rest. They will never move Him to remove His signature from the title page of the story He is writing. Excuse me, but I don't want to live in that book.

This is not trusting an abstract "plan" or a detailed schematic diagram of the universal "clock." It is holding God to His word by faith. When the ultimate eschatological denouement comes, the "all things" that will be revealed on that day as having worked together for good will be inseparable from the cross and resurrection. How could they not be?



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Gianni  Thursday, August 14, 2008 9:53 pm
"Excuse me, but I don't want to live in that book."



Nice turning of the tables on Ivan, and nice putting the "holding God to His word" socks in the correct drawer.
Wonders for Oyarsa  Friday, August 15, 2008 1:21 am
So Doug is a young-Earth creationist? I didn't know that. Are most confessional Calvinists young-Earth creationists these days, or are they generally all over the map on this issue?
Douglas Wilson  Friday, August 15, 2008 2:14 am
Wonders, most confessional Calvinists in my neck of the woods are young earth. But there are quite a number of frameworkers in the broader confessional world.

But what I am asking for here is simply the recognition that accommodation to an old earth is an accommodation to a "discovery" made by modernity. It is a concession we made to the modernists. And in my mind, we ought not to have made it.
Wonders for Oyarsa  Friday, August 15, 2008 2:22 am
Hi Doug,



By "modernity" you include people, including (and especially) committed Christians, using their vocation in science to the glory of God. Many people credit the Christian faith for the development of modern science in Western Civilization - are you willing to label all of that "modernity"?
Matthew N. Petersen  Friday, August 15, 2008 3:26 am
The world is not a clock; the world is a story. But -- and this is the key point -- the world is not a story told by the creature. It is a story enacted by the creature, but not a story told by us.



I think this is the area where my disagreement lies. Not of course that I straight up disagree with you, but that I think you take too much away from the creature. Start with this sentence. Is it not also true of Christ "Christ is not a clock; He a story. But -- and this is the key point -- the He is not a story told by Himself. He is a story enacted by Himself, but not a story told by the Father. God is the one who put every comma on every page. Every action of Christ is an imitation of His Father, and everything He does, He does because of God's life giving Breath."



But of course we don't use this to say Christ is predetermined, or even determined by the Father and the Spirit.
Matthew N. Petersen  Friday, August 15, 2008 3:29 am
This of course doesn't imply we are free, but it does seem to suggest that when we use those premises to prove we aren't active, we miss something. Particularly when we apply this argument to sin, I think we begin to go a bit far. Even Luther said the human will has an active capacity for sin. "Free will, after the fall, has power to do good only in a passive capacity, but it can do evil in an active capacity. (Heidelberg Disputation, Thesis 14.)



And so the truoble I have is in saying that even in his sin, Adam only used his passive capacity.



I would say that God did not intend evil, though because of His love for His Bride, He is able to completely destroy it. Even in his capacity to do evil, Adam cannot do evil, for God has respected Adam's choice, and yet has brought it to naught.
allen short  Friday, August 15, 2008 4:01 am
Wonders, I think the main issue is that belief in an old earth, for most of the spiritual descendants of the Enlightenment, derives from the religious commitment to the idea of "time plus chance" as the origin of the created order. These kinds of religious commitments determine how we interpret the phenomena we observe. The asymmetry of the situation should be apparent when we look at how often Christians have tried to reconcile the biblical account of creation with the idea of an old earth, and how rarely atheists have tried to reconcile their account of how life arose with the idea of a young earth.
Douglas Wilson  Friday, August 15, 2008 4:03 am
Wonders, I would actually be among those who credit the faith for the rise of many of the blessings of the modern era, including many of the blessings brought to us by science. Like Lewis, I am an "old Western man," but also like Lewis I am not a geocentrist.

My point is simply that Hart cannot be rejecting the Enlightenment view of nature while embracing one of its central pillars. In other words, I would not fault Hart for having a house with indoor plumbing, but I do fault him for pretending to reject the modern view of nature when he clearly has not.
Douglas Wilson  Friday, August 15, 2008 4:11 am
And Matt, you say: "I would say that God did not intend evil, though because of His love for His Bride, He is able to completely destroy it."

Even if we start at this rudimentary level, the basic (and very stark) problem remains. Even if God didn't intend evil initially, once it arises, if He has the power to destroy it immediately and does not, then at the very least He intends for it to continue for the time being. Not to decide is to decide. Because God is omnipotent, His lack of intervention in my current pain reveals an intention, and then the question moves to where it ought to be -- why and not whether.
Wonders for Oyarsa  Friday, August 15, 2008 4:45 am
But Doug, unlike Lewis, it seems you not only reject the "discoveries" of modern geology and cosmology, but insist that anyone who doesn't has accepted the enlightenment view of nature. This accusation is made toward more than Hart - it is made against C. S. Lewis, and myself. And it isn't terribly fair.



And speaking of Geocentrism, is not the fact that the earth is not the center of the universe a pillar of the Enlightenment view of nature - what some call the Copernican principle? I rarely heard of an atheist in the sixteenth century argue FOR geocentrism, after all.
Matthias  Friday, August 15, 2008 5:22 am

Wandering back up the young earth creationist rabbit trail and getting back to the discussion about "Doors of the Sea"... I thought I'd throw in this thought from Hart.


"what sort of God should a purely 'natural' theology invite us to see? Perhaps a God whose beneficent purposes can indeed be realized only within the rigid constraints of certain logical possibilities to which his power and will are subject - the God, that is, of rational theodicy."

I think this is an excellent example of how Hart puts the cart before the horse (as he does so often when describing theodicy). Imagine that I am driving along the road with a small child in the front seat. After a while of intense observation, the child looks to the dashboard and says, "Why don't you take me to McDonalds?" I ask him to whom he speaks. He glances at me dismissively and informs me, "To the car." I ask him why he thinks the car can do anything by itself and he replies, "Because every time the car wants to turn, it turns the wheel you're holding."

The child, like Hart, has confused the source of the intention. God is not subject to logical possibilities any more than He is subject to goodness. He is the source from which logic, reason and goodness spring.

Matthias  Friday, August 15, 2008 5:22 am
Oops. Forgot to close my italics tag. There we go.
Matthias  Friday, August 15, 2008 5:33 am

Another qualm with Hart in this section of the book (p 54):


while the Christian is enjoined to see the glory of God in all that is, it is not a glory conformed to the dimensions or logic of "nature" as we understand it.


What astounds me about this statement is that, while Hart is OK with saying "God's concept of logic transcends our concept of logic", he is adamant that God's concept of goodness must conform to ours. He flies off the handle at the first suggestion that God may have a plan in which the tidal wave served His purposes because such a thought is repellent to his (Hart's) moral sense. I posit that, just as our logic is but a pale reflection of God's logic, so our sense of goodness is a pale reflection of God's goodness.

Why Hart can accept the former but not the latter is something of a mystery to me.

JWDS  Friday, August 15, 2008 5:37 am
Sorry to run down the rabbit trail again, but it's always helpful to be clear. The Enlightenment view of nature Doug is talking about is exactly that closed view of nature that Hart criticizes, and it was the closed view of nature that necessitated long periods of uniformitarian processes, because some did not want to admit that a power could act from without that natural order to make things faster or slower. And bringing up the Copernican revolution in that context is a total red herring: heliocentrism does not in any way entail a closed system of uniformitarian causes to explain away the appearance of design. Oddly enough, that's a ploy that the hard-core modernists--or Westminster old-earthers like Scott Clark--take, too, viz., insisting that anyone who rejects chance + time must also reject immunology, the MRI, or heliocentrism. But that simply doesn't follow.
JWDS  Friday, August 15, 2008 5:41 am
Good point, Matthias. A related question, then, for Matthew and Wonders: both of you have expressed a preference for the logical mystery of sovereignty /free will over the moral mystery that God, in His creative plan for the world, permits evil to continue so that good will abound (glory to God, peace on earth). Why? On grounds should we think that our sense of moral rightness is any less finite than our understanding of logic?
Wonders for Oyarsa  Friday, August 15, 2008 6:12 am
On what grounds, JWDS, would you appeal to someone to worship and serve God?
Matthew N. Petersen  Friday, August 15, 2008 6:15 am
Matthias



I'm not sure what the point you're trying to make with your first post is. The position Hart puts forth there is one he's disagreeing with.
Matthew N. Petersen  Friday, August 15, 2008 6:16 am
Pr. Wilson


Even if God didn't intend evil initially, once it arises, if He has the power to destroy it immediately and does not, then at the very least He intends for it to continue for the time being.



I of course agree, but I find the word immediately problematic. Of course God can do whatever He wants immediately, but I don't see why we should think His immediate reaction happens without pass of time here. Did Lucy come out of the wardrobe immedately? After His ascension Christ immedately asked that the Holy Spirit be poured forth on all flesh, and immedately the Father replied to Him, giving Him what He asked for. Yet this took ten days.
Matthew N. Petersen  Friday, August 15, 2008 6:16 am
I think a much better statement would be "Even if God didn't intend evil initially, once it arises, if He has the power to destroy it and does not, then at the very least He intends it." Which of course I agree with, but which has a false antecedent and consequent. God has the power to destroy evil. And God has destroyed evil, at all times and all places. But He is far too strong to do it immedately--to rain down philanthropy. Rather like mother Theresa saving Calcutta by suffering in her, so too Christ destroyed evil, at all times, and in all places, on the Cross. Orual cursed the gods for writing time backwards. But she discovered this power of the gods was her hope. If the god of the mountain can write time backwards, destroying his unfaithfulness, destroying her suffering, then certianly the God of Golgotha can.
Matthew N. Petersen  Friday, August 15, 2008 6:20 am
JWDS



God is certianly better than we can immagine. But he isn't worse. Christ is more loving than a tender mother, more loving than Mother Theresa, more loving than St. Francis, more loving than we can ask or hope. And if we make this more actually mean less, we turn our words on their heads. If "Christ is better than the best mother" means "Christ is more like a bad mother than a good one" we call evil good, but cleverly hide this fact from our eyes.
Matthias  Friday, August 15, 2008 6:44 am

Matthew


Mr. Hart misrepresents his theological foe and this is to his distinct disadvantage. He imagines himself fighting a great battle against the forces of theodicy and emerging unscathed when in fact he has constructed an orcish mass of CGI straw men upon whose corpses he claims victory.

My first post was simply to point out that the ideology against which he rails is a phantom theology and that his description is not an accurate one. Thus his defeat of the phantom ideology is not particularly meaningful.

Wonders for Oyarsa  Friday, August 15, 2008 7:05 am
It may not accurately describe your theology, Matthias, but this does not mean it doesn't exist.
Douglas Wilson  Friday, August 15, 2008 7:21 am
Matt, remember that I am a simple man. If I have a roaring toothache on Wednesday, and I ask the Lord to deliver me, and I discover in the Eschaton that all pain and suffering was conquered in the Cross, that doesn't change or alter the fact that I still have a toothache on Thursday.
Matthias  Friday, August 15, 2008 7:41 am

Wonders,


Throughout his book, Hart equates all Calvinists with this theology. He does so repeatedly and without reservation (see page 27-28). It is a little silly to glance innocently at those who would raise objection and say "Oh, I wasn't talking about you."

The alternative is for me to say, "Well, of course I disagree with that theology, if people really do that"... at which point he whirls around to point the finger at me and announce in triumph, "HaHa! You then reject Calvinism! I win!" As entertaining as this may be, it does not get us anywhere in the discussion.

Wonders for Oyarsa  Friday, August 15, 2008 7:48 am
Matthias, Hart did not set out on a crusade against Calvinism. He set out to discuss the problem of theodicy and was set upon by certain Calvinists, and it is at those arguments upon which he aims his sites. I doubt Hart, as an Eastern Orthodox theologian, cares much about Calvinism proper one way or another.
Matthew N. Petersen  Friday, August 15, 2008 8:20 am
Pr. Wilson



I said that the Cross destroys evil in all times. You can't say "well, that can't be true, evil has to be destroyed now." Well, yes. My point exactly. Hence my insistence on God writing time backwards, and my statement that God shall destroy evil in all times.



Which is why I have insisted that it is the Cross itself and not the eschaton which justifies. The eschaton shall reveal that the Cross has justified, but it is the Cross which has justified. Because of His love for His Bride, God came down from heaven, and was united to Her, mourning with Her Who mourned. And thus transforming even God-forsakenness into union with God.
Matthew N. Petersen  Friday, August 15, 2008 8:23 am
Matthias



I think in the quote you offered, Hart is describing the brutality of nature and not interacting with a theodicy at all.
Matthias  Friday, August 15, 2008 8:32 am

Wonders,


One of the Calvinists who "set upon" Hart was this gentleman. Hart describes him as "another Calvinist, a junior professor at a small college somewhere in the south" and describes his description of a historical theological position as "a chimera". He does this even though the gentleman is an Associate Professor and Hart knows exactly the college (Crichton) and (unless his geography is particularly awful) he probably also knows where Memphis is.


But every word of his description is uncharitable, designed to diminish this brother in Christ before we have even heard what he has to say. Add to this the fact that there are no footnotes, so it is up to the reader's ingenuity to search out the context for this view. And this is what he does to someone who spends two thirds of his time agreeing with Hart.


Hart cares about Calvinism... at least enough to attack it by name a few times. The rest of the time, he uses the phrase theodicy as a group into which he lumps any view of evil with which he disagrees.

Matthew N. Petersen  Friday, August 15, 2008 8:49 am
Matthias



May we assume that Hart didn't mention that professor for the same reason Lewis didn't name the authors of the grammar book he reviews in The Abolition of Man?



And I have no idea how someone can say that sin does not help us "fully enjoy God forever" but it does help us know God, and thus to enjoy Him more fully.
Matthias  Friday, August 15, 2008 9:16 am

Matthew,



Do you feel Hart dealt fairly with that critic or do you feel that he was uncharitable, dismissive and condescending? If you feel he was fair, then perhaps I am reading too much into it. It felt to me that Hart was uncharitable to him as a method of leading readers to dismiss him out of hand.

Wonders for Oyarsa  Friday, August 15, 2008 12:35 pm
I need to reread the whole section, and I don't currently have the book on hand. However, I suspect he omitted the name precisely because, though he disagreed with the ideas, he did not want to slander the man or tarnish his reputation. The book is about ideas, not about specific people (except perhaps Voltaire and Dostoevsky).



That a Catholic theologian with a deep knowledge of theological history would call "the Augustinian-Thomistic-Calvinistic tradition" a chimera should not be surprising. Augustine, Aquinas, and Calvin said very very different things.
Matthew N. Petersen  Friday, August 15, 2008 12:52 pm
Matthias



Like I've said, I don't have access to The Doors of the Sea and rely on "Tsunami and Theodicy". In the article, he certianly mentions Calvinism, but it's more because he needs a name, and his opponents are mostly Calvinist. What he's arguing against is the idea that evil is part of the harmony of the world--whether that harmony is the harmony of a clock, or the harmony of a story.
Douglas Wilson  Friday, August 15, 2008 2:20 pm
Matt, don't think of evil as harmony. Think of it as dissonance, which a wise composer can certainly use -- but not as though it were harmony.
Gianni  Friday, August 15, 2008 8:48 pm
It's fun to see Matthew talk about a divine plan and Pastor Wilson insisting on his Wednesday toothache.
Matthew N. Petersen  Saturday, August 16, 2008 4:27 am
Gianni



I'm not talking about a plan. I'm talking about nearly the opposite of a plan.



Pr. Wilson



I agree that a good composer uses dissonance. A tritone is ugly, but in the hands of J. S. Bach, it becomes beautiful. But that analogy cannot work here because the dissonance is part of the overall goodness of the piece. We surely don't want to say that sin is part of the overall goodness of creation, that good looked at the sin and saw that it was good.



And in fact, what I've been saying is something very much like there must be dissonance. Thus my insistence that God did exactly what He would have done even had there been no fall. And my insistence that God manifested his whole self among us, even his Godforsakenness. But dissonance is not dependent on sin, and God would have introduced dissonance without sin, and intended to do so. This is kinda like Jordan's statement that Adam would eventually have eaten the friut and died. Death, a sort of dissonance, would have been good.
Charles Long  Saturday, August 16, 2008 12:54 pm
Death, a sort of dissonance, would have been good.

[br][br]And by "good" I assume you mean "in accordance with God's purpose." Is this correct?

[br][br]Because if it is, then where's the next stop between there and "Evil and sin, sorts of dissonance, would have been good"?
Matthew N. Petersen  Sunday, August 17, 2008 3:06 am
LongShot



No, good doesn't really mean "in accordance with God's purpose."



And are you advocating that sin is good?
Charles Long  Sunday, August 17, 2008 8:41 am
Matthew,

[br][br]If "good" does not mean "in accordance with God's purpose," what does it mean? Please define "good." This would be helpful in undersatnding your contention that death = good.

[br][br]And no, I was charging you with saying that evil and sin could be in accordance with God's plan. And if my assumption about your definition of good were correct, the charge would have stuck. Here again, we need your definition of good.
Matthew N. Petersen  Sunday, August 17, 2008 1:40 pm
Alio modo secundum convenientiam unius entis ad aliud; et hoc quidem non potest esse nisi accipiatur aliquid quod natum sit convenire cum omni ente: hoc autem est anima, quae quodammodo est omnia, ut dicitur in III de anima. In anima autem est vis cognitiva et appetitiva. Convenientiam ergo entis ad appetitum exprimit hoc nomen bonum, ut in principio Ethic. dicitur quod bonum est quod omnia appetunt.



Thomas Aquinas De Veritate 1.1
Matthew N. Petersen  Sunday, August 17, 2008 1:44 pm
Roughly translated:



Another mode is when one being is comes together with another. And this is impossible unless there is one being which comes together with all substances: this substance is the soul, which in a certian sense is all things, as is said in De Anima III. In the soul however there are the cognative and the appetitive powers. A comming together therefore of a being to the appetite we give the mane "good", as in the first Ethics "It is said that the good is that which all desire."
Matthew N. Petersen  Sunday, August 17, 2008 1:45 pm
But that doesn't really get at it, because we have to get into a substance being fully or partially in act, and doing what it ought to do.
Charles Long  Sunday, August 17, 2008 3:08 pm
Matthew,

[br][br]Okay... if that doesn't get at it, then what does? I'm happy to chalk it up to my ignorance, but I don't see how your quote answers the question. Are you saying that "good" is defined as "what everybody wants"?

[br][br]Complete the sentence: "Good is defined as that which______________"

[br][br]And this one: "In accordance with the above definition, death is good because it ________________."

[br][br]And, finally, this one: "However, evil and sin are not good, because they __________________."
Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, August 18, 2008 3:51 am
Sentence 1: The good is what everyone desires. (Aristotle)



What everyone wants is God. (Aquinas, and indeed in a way Aristotle).



Finite goods are good because of their participation in God. (Dionysius the Aeropogate, Aquinas)



Prior to the Cross, death was separation from God, and so was evil. (Psalm 88, et. passim.) (That is to say it was a distorted form of good proper death.)



But now, in the Cross, death, though still separation from God, is, precisely in the separation, union with the God who was separated from God. (Colossians 1, Philippians 3, II Corinthians 1 et. passim)

Sentence 2: Death is good is good for good means union with God, and death is now union with God.



Similarly with any other sort of suffering. We see this most clearly in the Virgin Mary at the Cross, suffering with Christ, along side the Father and the Spirit. Not only death, but Marian loss and pain are (by a similar argument) good. But not good naturally, but by conquest. They are twisted good. They are converted Orcs.



Sentence 3: However moral evil and sin are not good, because the will actively moves from Christ, and actively seeks to remove others from Christ.



And natural evil is only in a way good, for it is a twisted good, in need of conquest by the Cross.
Charles Long  Monday, August 18, 2008 10:51 pm
What everyone wants is God? Are you saying God is what everyone else actually wants, or are you saying that God is what you think everyone ought to want? There is a difference there, obviously. Paul goes to some trouble to argue the point that none of us on our own seek God, or righteousness, or anything worthwhile, and that there are those who, never receiving the kind of help that the elect receive, never seek God at all. So then if God Himself admits to being sought out by less-than-everyone, are you sure (by your math) that He's actually good?
Gianni  Tuesday, August 19, 2008 12:15 am
LongShot, I think Matthew means that what everyone actually wants, without realizing it or admitting it, is God. That is, everyone has a thirst for something that, whether they admit it or not, can be quenched only by God. And since God is good, "good" is what everybody wants. Along those lines.



Of course, it remains to be seen how that is related to what you were actually asking him regarding death, God's purpose, and finding or not finding a certain next stop. Because even on his definition that "good" is what everybody wants, it still seems to me that he is bound to say that "evil and sin, sorts of dissonance, would have been good". Two can play that game. Evil and sin are good, because everybody really wants evil and sin, and they want them because good is what everybody really wants, and God's solution to evil and sin is to give Himself to sinners, and God is good, and what everyone really wants is God. Or something like that.
Matthew N. Petersen  Tuesday, August 19, 2008 2:33 am
Gianni



What everyone wants is God. But we can miss that in several ways. First, we can use bad means to get there. So if Zacheus had killed everyone so he could see Jesus rather than climbed a tree, he would havedestroyed his ability to actually see God. Second, we can prefer pictures of God over God Himself. Or rather we can use a picture as something in itself good, rather than as ameans of enjoying God.



But that's aside my point. My point is we can die with God. We can be forsaken by God, with God. If you could find a time when we could sin with God, if anyone had a good time gossipping or lusting after girls or coveting with Jesus then that sin would be good. But of course, that scenario is nonsense since Jesus never sinned.
Gianni  Tuesday, August 19, 2008 7:11 am
But then, Matthew, you change rules in mid-game. Now the good is not anymore what everybody wants, but being with God. I guess people who think that a plan is "the opposite of a plan" also think that a rule is the opposite of a rule. No sense in playing this game.
Matthew N. Petersen  Tuesday, August 19, 2008 8:01 am
Gianni



If what everyone wants is God, than to be with God is to have the object of your desire.
Gianni  Tuesday, August 19, 2008 9:14 am
Even so, your logic still demands that evil and sin are good provisionally.
Matthew N. Petersen  Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:37 am
Yes of course sin has some good in it. People wouldn't commit adultery if sex wasn't good. Every evil action is a distorted good action "no, not now" "no, not with them" but "yes, properly."
Gianni  Tuesday, August 19, 2008 4:57 pm
Don't backpedal. Not "has some good in it", is good.