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Eucatastrophe at the Eschaton PDF Print E-mail
Atheism and Apologetics - Doors of the Sea
Written by Douglas Wilson   
Monday, 11 August 2008 08:32

The fifth section of The Doors of the Sea contains Hart's central concerns with inadequate Christian theodicies (as he considers them), and is the section where he showcases Ivan Karamazov's rebellion against God.

"This is the splendid perversity and genius of Ivan's (or Dostoyevsky's) argument, which makes it indeed the argument of a rebel rather than of a mere unbeliever" (p. 38).

In summary, the argument runs this way:

"After all, Ivan asks, if you could bring about a universal and final beatitude for all beings by torturing one small creature to death, would you think the price acceptable?" (p. 42).

Hart says rightly that Dostoyevsky's genius is very much in evidence as he frames Ivan's rebellion for him. But he then ruins his observation by combining it with a striking contempt for other believers.

"I am convinced that Ivan's discourse . . . constitutes the only challenge to a confidence in divine goodness that should give Christians serious cause for deep and difficult reflection. Those Christian readers who have found it easy to ignore or dispense with the case that Dostoyevsky constructs for Ivan have not, I submit, fully comprehended that case (or, alternatively, have comprehended it, but adhere to so degenerate a version of Christian doctrine that they can no longer be said to understand the God revealed in Christ" (p. 42).

In short, it appears that Christians who are not with Hart on this one must be either stupid or evil. But his contempt for others notwithstanding, Hart still makes a good observation about Ivan. What he does not appear to see is that Ivan would make short work of Hart's approach as well.

"Ivan's rage against explanation arises from a Christian conscience, and so -- even if Ivan cannot acknowledge it -- its inner mystery is an empty tomb, which has shattered the heart of nature and history alike (as we understand them) and fashioned them anew" (p. 44).

Hart is right that Ivan's rage is fueled by a Christian conscience -- it requires the faith in order to be able to rail against it. To use Van Til's image, a rebellious child has to sit in the lap of an adult in order to have his slap reach. Because of this, Ivan refuses to "figure the suffering of children into that final equation without remainder" (p. 40). A litany of outrages against children are listed by Ivan (and Hart), and the question about final trade-offs and outcomes is then posed. "Would you think the price acceptable?" What Hart will not face is the fact that he, and any orthodox Christians who affirm creatio ex nihilo, answer this question with what Ivan would consider a yes.

The universe is here, and it has contained, contains, and will continue to contain unspeakable acts against children (p. 39). Now God is the one who put this universe here, and who sustains it in its continued course. Without God doing this, these unspeakable acts would not and could not have happened. All these evils are part of a contingent universe which depends upon the will of God for its continued existence, which means that every evil act is conducted in the palm of God's hand. God is present at all of them. This means that something has prevailed upon God to do what He has been doing. Some "price," as Ivan would summarize it, has made the decision worth it. If some Calvinist had wandered far enough east into Russia to have a conversation with Ivan about this, it would not be long before Ivan said, "To hell with your God." But if Hart came up immediately afterwards to fix things, with handwaving assurances about the mysteries of creational freedom and the empty tomb, on his way out the door Ivan would have just enough time to say, "Yours too."

We don't usually have to talk about these things until an event like the Asian tsunami forces the topic on us. But as long as we are talking about it, and as long as Hart wants to maintain that thoughtful Calvinists don't really "understand the God revealed in Christ," I will respond with the rejoinder that between atheism and Calvinism there is no consistent stopping place.

We live in a world that contains both rapists and little girls. The "humans-need-to-have-free-will" defense of God fails, not because it maintains that God wants us to have free will, but rather because this whole problem is caused by God apparently favoring the free wills of rapists while despising the free wills of little girls. Read the newspaper. Watch the evening news. Look around. It is an undeniable fact that little girls are sacrificed, and that God does not intervene to stop it. Assuming His existence, His refusal to stop such sacrifices means that He cannot stop them or He will not stop them. If He cannot, then He is not the God of the Bible. If He will not, then He has His reasons. And it does not really matter if they are the reasons that Hart thinks or the reasons Wilson thinks, the fact remains that Ivan will have no patience with either of us.

But let us be done with Ivan because he wants to use the mistreatment of children as his basis for condemning everyone, including God, but he has no basis for condemning the mistreatment of children. Why would that be wrong, on his principles? If you frame the whole matter in terms of a refusal to hear the explanation, no matter how good it is, then you have fallen into some form of atheism. And as soon as you have done so, you have lost all your reasons to condemn those things that have outraged you, and if you feel like it, you now have no consistent reason not to engage in them yourself.

Some might not want to get rid of Ivan because he provides a handy human shield against the questions posed by Calvinists, which is understandable I suppose. But if you have faith in the Author, and are willing to read on to the last chapter of the story, then prepare your heart for an exhaustively satisfying eucatastophe.



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Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, August 11, 2008 9:14 am
Pr. Wilson



"But if Hart came up immediately afterwards to fix things, with handwaving assurances about the mysteries of creational freedom and the empty tomb, on his way out the door Ivan would have just enough time to say, "tu quoque."



Let's grant you are correct. That doesn't get Calvinism off the hook.



But let us be done with Ivan because he wants to use the mistreatment of children as his basis for condemning everyone, including God, but he has no basis for condemning the mistreatment of children. Why would that be wrong, on his principles?



OK, do away with Ivan Karamazov. Ivan makes a correct case, but has cut himself off from sense or hope of answer. Then answer Matthew Petersen. He is a baptized Christian, speaking to God standing on the foundation of the Advocate. God promises to be shield and sun. You say "look at the facts. He's not." I say "God, this is nonsense, you promise to be shield and sun, yet you use the sun to smite me by day and the moon by night. I am like a tree planted by the rock, a house built on the sandy fertile river bank. Thou hast broken the teeth of the godly. I will be afraid when tenthousands of people rise up against me for YHVH does not defend me. I am cut off without friend or lover."



Will you show partiality to God?
RFB  Monday, August 11, 2008 9:47 am
Matthew, I will answer you, not with my words, but with His: "Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not. So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.”
Douglas Wilson  Monday, August 11, 2008 9:50 am
Matt, the point is not to get Calvinism off the hook. The point is to get all Christians to face up to the implications of what we all say we believe. Non-Calvinist Christians demand Calvinists answer the same objections that non-Christians demand of all Christians. We all live in a sinful world, and we all believe in an infinitely powerful, all-good God. That means we are in the same boat, like it or not.

And my point has not been that God is not a shield and sun. It is that we do not understand how He is shield and sun apart from the entire story. And when the entire story is finally told, we will see that He has been shield and sun in every respect -- with no remainders still silently weeping.
StevenWedgeworth  Monday, August 11, 2008 9:54 am
Matt,


It is hard to contribute to these discussions once they get snowballing, which should happen in about thirty minutes or so, but I could perhaps help out a bit up front to keep some categories straight.


When Calvin says that God wills things like the fall and the ongoing presence of sin, he says that this is true of God's permissive will. God wills to allow it to happen.


Since God is pure act, however, we don't want to construe this as a passive or "unwilling" willing. God isn't being acted upon against his nature by outside forces. But sure, the level of mystery remains.


I largely agree with Pastor Wilson' emphasis on the eschaton. It is ultimately the second coming of Christ that will be THE theodicy.
Jeff Moss  Monday, August 11, 2008 10:17 am
The character of Ivan Karamazov--in all his humane complexity--is a magnificent reductio ad absurdum of the modern atheist. He rages against God, strives to live by pure reason, and finally...sees visions of the Devil and then goes insane.



In one important sense, Hart is exactly right when he says, "Those Christian readers who have found it easy to ignore or dispense with the case that Dostoyevsky constructs for Ivan have not, I submit, fully comprehended that case." Anyone who finds it easy to dispense with Ivan's case doesn't take Biblical redemptive history seriously. God did not respond to the suffering of innocent children with mere empty affirmations that He is their Protector. He made the problem better by making it worse. At His bidding, not just a small creature but the holiest and best of all men freely chose to be tortured to death, right in the middle of God's creation. The Incarnation means that God Himself indwelt the humanity of the violated little girl in order to suffer with her and then raise her up to glory in Himself.



No theodicy is complete if it misses either the immanence or the transcendence of God, the Crucifixion or the Glorification.
Jeff Moss  Monday, August 11, 2008 10:29 am
Just to be clear, my last post was intended as a friendly response to Hart, Doug, and Matt, all at once. :-)
Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, August 11, 2008 10:36 am
Steven



How's that different from Aquinas? And I don't quite understand your third paragraph.



And also, that's different from Pr. Wilson's take on predestination. It's not Lewis permits the unman to go to Perelandra, or at least not in the usual sense.
Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, August 11, 2008 10:37 am
Pr. Wilson



As I have said elsewhere here, and as I believe I have said on my blog, I think Hart comes up short. But, first, his attack on cosmic ordering, on a plan which justifies is spot on--as if God had planned evil. And, second, he grapples with the right problems. If he doesn't get far enough, fine. But he is correct to say "we cannot accept a heaven founded on evil."
Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, August 11, 2008 10:43 am
Jeff



The Incarnation means that God Himself indwelt the humanity of the violated little girl in order to suffer with her and then raise her up to glory in Himself.



That's what I've been saying from the beginning. Good means union with God, evil means separation from God. But now, by the mystery of the Cross, even separation from God is union with God. (Philippians 3:10-12, Romans 12:15, Luke 1:53, Matthew 5:4, II Corinthians 1:3-6, Colossians 1:24.)
Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, August 11, 2008 12:21 pm
Also, there's a world of difference between saying "Adam's sin was contrary to the design of God, contrary to the will of God, contrary to the hope of God, and sought to destroy the design will and hope of God. Yet God in His weakness took up even Adam's sin into His story, making even the destruction it wrought good, and accomplishing his design, accomplishing his will, and accomplishing his hope." and saying "Adam's sin was part of the design of God, part of the will of God, part of the hope of God, and though from here it looks bad, yet by Cross, God shall show that even it was good and proper." The first seems orthodox to me, but the second (which is what I have been hearing from Calvinists here (or something much worse)) does not seem to be so.
Douglas Wilson  Monday, August 11, 2008 1:04 pm
And Matt, if you grasp both of these poles instead of insisting on a false choice between them, that is the cruciform posture that our mortified sentiments must assume. Anybody can have a surrendering God and anybody can have a conquering God. It takes a consistent Christian to have both without apology.
Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, August 11, 2008 1:42 pm
Pr. Wilson



I have no idea what two poles you mean. If you mean the two I put up, I think they're contradictory. If you mean conquest and loss, I put up two options for reconciling them, one that seems to be orthodox, the other which to me seems to presume the doctrine of the fall.



Throughout this discussioin, I have found a number of Calvinists who presumed to know what I believe and then demonstrated with great bombast and pride but little or no love that that position is foolish. I don't believe the nonsense that has been attributed to me, and I have no idea what two poles you mean, or what you're exhorting me to believe.
Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, August 11, 2008 1:42 pm
"the other which seems to me to deny the doctrine of the fall."
StevenWedgeworth  Monday, August 11, 2008 1:53 pm
Matt,


I don't think Calvin is teaching anything different from Aquinas.


My point about God's nature being pure act is simply to say that "permissive will" does not mean that God is passive in the process. Just as the privation theory of evil is necessary for orthodoxy, which is what I believe is making the Calvinists uncomfortable, so too God as unchanging, impassible, pure act, is necessary for orthodoxy.


Thus God isn't being acted upon by outside forces, nor is He warring against Himself (in some Jesus vs. the Father scenario). He is not the author of evil, but He does actively allow it to exist for whatever purpose He has.


That He has a purpose should be beyond question though, and that's all the "plan" talk is meant to say. God is not anarchy. God is not moved.


I don't deny that some Calvinists, in their attempt to fuel up the jets, might jump off the ship altogether. I've seen it happen all the time. But to affirm that God has an all-encompassing divine plan, and that all that comes to pass is a part of it, does not necessitate jumping off the ship.
StevenWedgeworth  Monday, August 11, 2008 2:02 pm
Speaking of Aquinas, the Reformers did not believe that their doctrine of predestination was anything new. They believed that they were following Thomas, Anselm, Prosper and Augustine.


My buddy David has compiled a helpful resource on the notion of divine "permission" here: http://calvinandcalvinism.com/?cat=11



Some modern Calvinists simply don't know all the options, which leads to some rhetorical blunders, but the consensus of the Reformers is in line with the catholic tradition.


And we should be careful not to get too far off from the Scriptures. The one thing that was most clearly predestined was the death of Jesus Christ (Acts 2:23).
StevenWedgeworth  Monday, August 11, 2008 2:03 pm
Your use of the Psalms isn't completely invalid either. I think the framing of this debate makes it edgy, but the job of a prophet is to argue with God.


Of course, the underlying truth, which supports Calvinism, is that God wants them to do this.
Douglas Wilson  Monday, August 11, 2008 2:19 pm
Matt, I do mean the two that you put up. I believe in God the Father Almighty Maker of heaven and earth, the one whose very Word was broken and mangled on the cross, and who was as a consequence raised to a position exalted above every name. Not all weakness, and not all strength. Both.

And if you don't believe Calvinists have understood you well, then bear with them, try to be clearer, and show them what love looks like in a debate.
StevenWedgeworth  Monday, August 11, 2008 2:24 pm
As Hart would advocate, the contradiction is not a real one because of divine infinity.
Jeff Moss  Monday, August 11, 2008 3:24 pm
Doug and Steven, as you are urging Matt to affirm both of the "poles" that he described (at 8:21:26 PM), please keep in mind that he intended them to flatly contradict each other. Was it God's desire that Adam should sin, or was it not? If you answer "both," it certainly sounds as though you're either equivocating on "desire" or violating the principle of non-contradiction. I don't know what other option there can be.



Of course, not one of us has known the mind of God or can claim to be His counselor. Trying to nail down these things theologically is difficult business. Yet don't we still want to avoid affirming "A" and "not A" at the same time and in the same way? If we say, "It was not God's will that Adam should sin," then we ought not to say, "It was God's will that Adam should sin," and vice versa. At least, not if we intend the meanings of the words to be consistent.
Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, August 11, 2008 3:39 pm
Steven



The contrast I was trying to draw in the two quotes was not between the strength of God and the weakness of God--I was just using two different ways to say the Cross. The difference between the two quotes as I intended it was whether the fall was part of the original story, or was incorporated into the story after the fall (the story remaining the same). As I understand it, God wished to tell a story, and made men active participants in the story. And using his activity to not only be told, but to tell, Adam tried to undo the story. And though Adam's sin was not an intended part of the story--that is it came wholly from Adam and not from Christ--yet God was so small that he was powerful enough to incorporate Adam's sin into the story, and tell the same story He had intended--for what is the Story but Christ, the Word of God?



Thus Christ's death for us was predestined because even had there been no Fall, still Christ would have been sacrificed for us. We have on our tables that Bread which we would have eaten, even had we not sinned. And we worship the Lamb sacrificed for us, who would have been sacrificed for us even had there been no fall, as He is eternally sacrificed (and sacrifices Himself) for the life of the Spirit and the Father.
Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, August 11, 2008 3:47 pm
We could say that the reason God preserved Adam even though Adam had sinned was that had He simply destroyed Adam and all suffering, Adam (and Satan) would have been victorious. He had to do far more than destroy Adam, he had to destroy evil, destroy nothingness, destroy God-forsakenness. And He did that by living His whole life among us, even holding back not even His nothingness, not even His God-forsakenness, that for us death might be life and God-forsakenness union with God, thus utterly bringing Adam's sin to naught.



Of course in many ways I would prefer to say that Christ came and transformed death into life not because He wanted to be victorious, but because He loved his Bride and couldn't bear to be separate from Her.
Gianni  Monday, August 11, 2008 6:20 pm
Jeff, was it God's will that the Jews kill Jesus? No, Exodus 20:13, Exodus 23:7. And yes, Acts 4:26, Acts 4:27, Acts 4:28. Was it God's will that Judas betray Jesus? No, Luke 22:22. And yes, Luke 22:22. Does a writer of crime novels approve murder? I bet not. Does she will a character of her novel to commit murder? Yes. Why? Because the purpose of her novel is, among other things, to reveal her hate for murder. At the end of the novel the murderer is caught and hanged. She wills that too. The answer of your question is to be found in the God/creature distinction.
Peter Jones  Monday, August 11, 2008 11:54 pm
Matt, this is in reference to your comment at 11:39. Whether God ordained evil or incorporated it into His plan does not really solve the problem. God could right now cause every single evil deed to be done, but He chooses not to. In the end, we are still left with evil and sin that God permits or decrees to exist.

I would add that the doctrine of Hell has some bearing here. If God allows Hell, and therefore pain and suffering, to exist forever, then in some way it must bring glory to Him. Will there be sin in Hell? I think the answer must be yes. That is why the people are there. They refused Christ. Now I will admit the glory of the Kingdom will far outshine the horrors of Hell. But none-the-less the doctrine of eternal punishment tells me that not only did God incorporate sin and evil into his plan (to take up that side of the argument), but He took it up in such a way that it exists forever.

Peter Jones  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 1:44 am
In my above comment "done" means "over with." In other words, God could cause evil to cease to exist. The sentence is poorly worded.
katecho  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 3:54 am
Well said, Gianni. This isn't an inscrutable situation that some try to make it out to be. None of us have one-dimensional wills or desires, and neither does God.


It is plain and undeniable from many passages that God has an expressly revealed will for man, and also a permissive will. God often tells man the correct thing to do, and then allows man to do the opposite. God has things well enough in hand to tolerate this situation (without remainder, as Doug says), just as a parent is able to tolerate giving their child all the rope they need as they steal cookies from the counter before dinner and then lie about it to the parent's face.


There are too many Christians who think like the child, and want to argue back to the parent, "Why did you let me do all this unless you wanted me to? It's all your fault for not stopping me!" Most parents aren't confused enough about their own desires to fall for this sort of argument from their children.


And as for tsunamis, there are too many who want to accuse God of being evil for bringing death to babies and cute little puppies, for any reason. This is just another form of denial of the fall. They really think God is in the wrong to employ death providentially as He does. They think they are being like Job when they accuse God this way, but they apparently never read Job 1:21.

Matthew N. Petersen  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 4:09 am
I'm not sure that anyone has interacted with my posts yet.



Gianni, it seems you take the second option and then endeavor to thow that it isn't nonsense. Fine. But it isn't the first option.



Peter, I'm not quite sure what your point about Hell is, nor your point about God destroying evil. I think it's problematic for us to speak of God always wanting his own glory, because that makes him sound selfish.



katecho, I'm not sure who you're talking about, but you're not talking about me--if you were, you'd be polite rather than ellusive, and talk to me and ask me what I believe. And anyway, I don't recognize the person you're talking about. I am curious though why you bring it back to the permissive/revealed will. The question is whether both permissive and revealed will are part of the higher category of decretive will. And you cannot dodge that question by addressing a different one.
Matthew N. Petersen  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 4:13 am
This is very much a debate over double election. I say double election is nonsense, you say it is Scriptural. You cannot prove double election by drawing distinctions between God's revealed/permissive will. Nor can you say "I believe in double election and deny it." That's just nonsense.
Peter Jones  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 4:40 am
Matt, I am trying to get a handle on what you are saying. Do you believe that God allows/decrees evil to exist? Could He stop it if he wanted? If he could stop it, why doesn't He?
Gianni  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 4:42 am
Matthew, I don't understand what you are trying to tell me. Please explain. And I was talking to Jeff.



Also, if I were in you I'd ignore this thing about Katheco's style and I would answer him anyway.
Douglas Wilson  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 4:46 am
Matt, I want to address the substance of what you say about double election soon, but first I really need to address a matter of rhetoric. I believe that katecho was the one you accused of being a son of the devil in a previous thread, and I had to ask you to back off. In the rough and tumble of debate, it is true that sometimes points are misunderstood, and it is quite possible for me to conceive that you have been misunderstood at places. But please don't take that kind of thing personally. I am not maintaining that all Calvinists in all these exchanges have treated you perfectly, but in comparison your tone and manner have been far more prickly, abrasive, condescending and over the top polemical than theirs. If God treats us all as you say, then show us what that looks like.
Douglas Wilson  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 4:54 am
Matt, on your point about double election, here is the other side of it.


"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9).


"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" (Rom. 9:22).


"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled" (John 17:12).
katecho  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 5:43 am
I mentioned the distinction between God's revealed will for us and His permissive will because we relate to this very directly in the exercise of our own will.


There are things we wish for from our children, and then there are things we wish to allow them to get into that are not what we expressly told them to do. This is a routine part of training up children to face the consequences of their decisions. We do it in a controlled fashion as much as we are able, much like God allows evil in a controlled fashion.


When God desires to ordain that wickedness come to pass, it doesn't upset His revealed desire for righteousness from us. When a parent spanks a disobedient child to tears, it doesn't contradict the parent's genuine desire for joy in the heart of their child.


When we point to the fact of God's ordaining of certain evil acts in history, we must not be like a child who wants to blame their parents for letting them get caught by their own sin.

Matthew N. Petersen  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 5:53 am
Pr. Wilson



I am a fool if I defend myself, but katecho had been running rough-shod over everything I said, setting traps for me, presuming to know what I believed, refusing to speak to me, and lecturing me in a very condescending manner. Both Wonders and I saw it, and both of us repeatedly had told him to knock it off. Yet he continued with his proud arrogant antagonism. So, I rebuked him for being a Pharisee. My quote was "You spew venom from your mouth [a reference to the Pharisees as vipers]. So you can quote Scriptures [as could the Pharisees]. So could your father. [As Jesus rebuked the proud Pharisees for being sons of the devil, so likewise I rebuked this Pharisee.]" It wasn't for his Calvinism, but for his demeaning arrogance. He was RC a couple of months ago, so perhaps he's just cadge-state but it was absolutely impossible to have a discussion with him. As I recall, Wonders too saw this, and accused you of blatant partianship, and said he would rather have my treatment of katecho than katecho's treatment of a "brother in Christ."
Matthew N. Petersen  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 5:57 am
katecho



But the revealed/permissive will is completely aside the point. You spend two paragraphs setting up a valid distinction and then wave your hands and assume a completely different one. "When God desires to ordain..." That isn't permissive. A better analogy would be if I set the cookie jar down on the floor in order that the child would get into it, and then punished him for it. I didn't just permit him from stealing cookies.
katecho  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 5:59 am
In regard to "double election", we must not be naive. If God knows who He is redeeming (and He does, see Wilson's verses above) then God is not at a loss to figure out whom He isn't redeeming. When you know one set, you know the other too. It's pretty straightforward for us to figure out, let alone for God.


However, (this is very important), we can't point to God's ordination of whatever come to pass, and then try to use that fact as an excuse for ourselves, or pretend that God's control of history somehow nullifies our accountability.


God controls history (every sparrow and snowflake) while we remain fully accountable to Him. God is not a judge of inanimate puppets, but of accountable persons. We may not be able to diagram how God is able to preserve our accountability for our decisions, but every page of Scripture informs us that we remain accountable to Him at all times-- even while He ordains the good and the wicked with His sovereign seal.

katecho  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 6:08 am
We may have to just disagree on this issue, but I would affirm that God can also ordain what He permits. Ordaining something is not in conflict with permitting something to come to pass. When we say that God ordains something, we are not saying that God is forcing us to move as if He had His hand up inside a sock puppet.


God can ordain that Herod and Pilate seek the life of Jesus from their own accountable motivations and deliberations. God can both ordain what Herod did, and ordain that Herod be accountable to God while doing it.

RFB  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 6:09 am
Matthew,

"I think it's problematic for us to speak of God always wanting his own glory, because that makes him sound selfish." It would only make Him sound selfish if He were not God. The number of times that He speaks regarding His Glory, how it belongs to Him, how He will not share it, how God Incarnate accepted worship only due God, are almost too numerous to count. He is high and lifted up, and His Glory is as much one of His attributes and any other, so it is perfectly fitting for the One to be glorious, and jealous for it as well.
katecho  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 6:10 am
Matthew N. Petersen wrote:
"When God desires to ordain..." That isn't permissive. A better analogy would be if I set the cookie jar down on the floor in order that the child would get into it, and then punished him for it. I didn't just permit him from stealing cookies.

Would a better analogy be if God set a Tree of Knowledge down in the middle of the garden of Eden, and told Adam and Eve not to get into it, and then punished them when they did get into it?
RFB  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 6:10 am
should be "...as any other..."
Gianni  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 6:13 am
Having followed these discussions, for what is worth, I strongly disagree with Matthew's assessment of Katheco's behavior. I agree with Douglas Wilson's assessment of Matthew's behavior. This will sound partisan to some. That's still my opinion.
thomas  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 6:27 am
Douglas,

I think you've missed the point of Hart's criticism of Calvinism, and Ivan's argument is far more profound than you have presented it. As Hart points out, Ivan isn't simply engaging in the usual "God must be either not all-powerful or not good" dilemma. This reduces God to a finite moral agent, and Hart rules this out as a matter of method. Rather, Ivan says that if, in the last day, all wounds are healed, all men are saved, and goodness prevailed, and if this final day requires the suffering of a child, he cannot accept on moral grounds. He doesn't assume that God in any way causes suffering; this would have been exponentially more evil. God looks on the suffering of children with horror, and has a plan to end suffering and make it meaningful. Ivan himself says he longs for the last day, and reflects on how wonderful it will be. However, as desirable as it is, Ivan cannot accept his "ticket" to heaven if it is paid for with the suffering of innocent children. Therefore, he returns his ticket.
thomas  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 6:27 am
What Ivan (and Hart) are pointing out is that any plan for salvation which amounts to a divine calculus which justifies the suffering of all innocents would weave evil in with good, and is unacceptable morally (not for God perhaps, but for us). What Ivan rejects is precisely what the early Christians reject: a vision of the cosmos in which good and evil necessarily co-exist. By affirming the doctrine of creation ex nihilo, Christians declared creation good, and by denying evil any ontological content they separated evil permanently from the good (that is, being) and made it instead a disordering of the Good which would be overcome by Christ. Any divine plan which would figure evil as a necessary and useful component would have to give evil ontological content, and would fall back into the pagan notion of the necessity of good and evil. Therefore, the Christian rebellion (made dogma through the twin doctrines of creation ex nihilo and evil as the deprivation of good) rejects any deterministic plan which figures evil in a way that makes it integral to the plan. This is the whole point of Hart's book, which from another view simply defends creation ex nihilo and the Christian doctrine of evil.
RFB  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 6:59 am
Thomas, How does that position "Any divine plan which would figure evil as a...useful component...pagan" square with Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."


Gianni  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 7:03 am
Thomas, defining evil as "a disordering of the Good" after having affirmed creation ex nihilo sounds as cogent as a cosmologist saying that the Big Bang came from a random quantic fluctuation in a vacuum state of absolute nothingness.



But we don't need to guess, as the Lord has spoken clearly on the subject.
katecho  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 7:08 am
The attempt to take the moral high ground with appeal to the "suffering of innocent children" is a thinly disguised denial of the fall.


Job's righteousness can't be quoted too often in this context:

"Naked I came from my mother's womb, And naked I shall return there. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away. Blessed be the name of the LORD."

We need to let this attitude sink deep into us.


Another thing to point out is that evil and suffering itself, as wicked or as tragic as we could ever imagine them to be, are still frail and feeble in the face of God's righteousness. God laughs at the wicked. Christ conquers death and suffering.


When we contemplate the tone and power and meaning of evil and suffering we must not forget that it is God who has assigned those things the precise boundary of their tone and meaning and their power. God has defined evil and suffering to be what they are, and to mean for us creatures what they mean. God is that far above them.


We creatures are not the center, and besides this we are fallen. So we must not pretend that our suffering is ever the measuring rod or standard of God's righteousness. We are not absolute. We are contingent. We are sinners.

Douglas Wilson  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 7:40 am
Thomas, thanks. I think you summarized Hart very nicely. But what he and you think you have banished from your house is still hiding under the bed.

"However, as desirable as it is, Ivan cannot accept his 'ticket' to heaven if it is paid for with the suffering of innocent children. Therefore, he returns his ticket."

But to return the ticket to God is to claim that He is the one trying to pay for eternal bliss with the sorrow of a child. This is simply a more subtle statement of the traditional problem of evil.

And concerns about the ontology of evil are beside the point. Evil, whatever else it is (or is not), is not a nullity in the story.
thomas  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 8:40 am
Douglas,

For Hart, at least, evil is precisely a nullity; the main point of his book lies in the denial of any ontological status to evil (this becomes especially clear in the dialogue between him and Esolen). Hart argues that giving evil a necessary place in God's plan for creation would deny the goodness of creation by making evil something positive and sully the victory of Christ. If God required evil to bring about his good ends, he would not be all-powerful. Death and evil are the enemy to any Christian conscience, and to God himself; a real enemy, not something necessary and beneficial. The significance of Christ's work is, Hart says, his victory over death; which stands as the antithesis of God's divine plan. Evil is a nullity in the story, and it must be -- otherwise creation is not good, God is evil just as much as he is good, and Christ's victory loses any real significance as he conquers over something set up by God instead of something truly in opposition to God. The doctrine of evil as the privation of good is necessary in order to safeguard the goodness of God himself. Harts book simply elaborates on this in relation to providence.
thomas  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 8:46 am
RFB,

Isaiah 45:7 does not talk about evil as such, but refers to the "evil of penalty," as is clear from the context. God here is referring to his conquest of the enemies of Israel, and evil here means the obstruction and losses suffered by Israel's enemies. Read in a Christian context, God refers to the enemies of the church and of mankind: death and evil. It actually means quite the contrary of what you intended it to.
Douglas Wilson  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 8:56 am
Thomas, how can we say something is a nullity in the story without claiming that it didn't happen? And if it did happen, then how and in what sense can it be considered a nullity?
RFB  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 9:52 am
So thomas when you say "God refers to the enemies of the church and of mankind: death and evil." that you mean that when Isaiah says "I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." that he means that the LORD creates "the enemies of the church and of mankind: death and evil"?
Jane Dunsworth  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 11:53 am
I must be missing something here. How can a Christian object to the concept of the world being redeemed at the cost of a suffering child, when that's actually less horrific than the thing that actually did redeem the world -- the suffering of One more innocent, guileless, precious, and lovable than any child who has ever lived? Ivan's solution was to reject the gospel itself -- I don't see how we can take two steps down Ivan's road without doing the same thing. Am I missing a subtlety here?
StevenWedgeworth  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 12:09 pm
Matt,


I posted some theses on this discussion at my blog. I tried to emphasize the divine attributes in support of catholic Calvinism.
AdamR  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 3:05 pm
"I think it's problematic for us to speak of God always wanting his own glory, because that makes him sound selfish." In what way is it possible for a Triune being to be selfish? Only unitarian beings can be selfish.


I think there are two key things we all keep tripping over. The first concerns the in's and out's of God's will and the fact that God wills to uphold the whole universe generally, rapists, molesters, and Obama included, while simultaneously condemning rapists, molesters, and Obama.


The second is where rapists, molesters, and Obama fit into God's plan, if at all. Some of the opposition seem to be arguing that in order to maintain the doctrine of God's unchangeable goodness, He can't have incorporated rapists, molesters, and Obama into that plan.

Jeff Moss  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 3:18 pm
Jane is making the same point that I tried to make in my first comment yesterday, only she's making it more clearly than I did.



Let me add to this, though, in a way that comes a little closer to part of Hart's argument:



If God's plan to save the world requires Him to ride roughshod over a single innocent child, then Ivan Karamazov refuses to take part in that salvation. But the Incarnation, Crucifixion, and Resurrection of Christ mean that the child's suffering does not have the place in God's plan that Ivan thinks it has.



For God, human suffering is not just "collateral damage." God does not operate on the principle that the end justifies the means. God did not stuff the child onto the "expense" side of a cosmic spreadsheet and then demonstrate that the bottom line will still come out positive. What He did was to unite Himself with the suffering human flesh that the child herself shares. He indwelt her suffering (on the Cross) so that she would indwell His glorification at the Resurrection and Ascension.



When the Apostle Peter was called on to console suffering Christians in his epistles, he spent a lot more time talking about the crucified and risen Lord Jesus Christ than about the transcendent sovereignty of God (without ever denying God's transcendence, of course). We would do well to follow his example.
Jeff Moss  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 3:34 pm
AdamR, it is problematic to speak of God always wanting His own glory if it's done in a simplistic way without a nuanced Trinitarian explanation. To take one example, this is a glaring weakness in John Piper's otherwise excellent book The Pleasures of God. The book is predicated on the idea that God does everything for His own glory, but the Trinitarian content is thin and poorly developed, so Piper is left saying that God's love has to take an exception to 1 Cor. 13:5 ("Love...does not seek its own").



A more thoroughly Biblical perspective affirms all of the following:

1. "To seek one’s own glory is not glory" (Prov. 25:27).

2. The Son glorifies the Father: "He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him" (John 7:18).

3. The Father glorifies the Son: John 13:31-32; John 17:10; Acts 3:13; etc.

4. And likewise for the Spirit.
thomas  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 4:06 pm
Douglas,

Evil is a nullity ontologically, which isn't quite the same thing as saying it has no historical consequence (even the nothing has its effects). The point here is whether evil happens necessarily or contingently; whether the introduction of evil in the fall plays an inextricable part in creation, or whether evil is an unnecessary disfiguration, a "shadow reality" (as I think Hart puts it). There's no space to elaborate on that here, Hart uses many pages in the Doors of the Sea to discuss it.

I will say, however, that if your position is correct, if evil is not a nullity, we must disown the dogma of the goodness of creation forthwith. If evil is necessarily bound up with good, if evil has a place in Being, if God wills evil, then God is the source of evil as well as good; we may attribute evil to the nature of God as well as good. The ontological blowback here is unavoidable; though less visceral than Ivan's case, making evil something positive requires a move from the good God of Christianity to a God who partakes in both good and evil. The irony of the situation is that the strict Calvinist position on this point is rather like that of the pagan Celsus in his early criticism of the Christians. What Celsus found so revolting about the Christians was precisely that they viewed evil as an unnecessary, contingent existence devoid of positive value, and the corresponding goodness of creation.
thomas  Tuesday, August 12, 2008 4:23 pm
RFB,

The "evil and woe" God creates consists in his confounding the purposes of the enemy. "Penal" evil, as I stated above. Since you don't appear to be familiar with the traditional Christian hermeneutical approach, I'll explain shortly here. To quote Maximus the Confessor: "the things of the Old Testament are shadow (skia); thos of the New Testament are image (eikon); and those of the future state are truth (aletheia)." That is, the truth of the Old Testament consists in its foreshadowing the coming of Christ in his humanity and his corporality (by which I mean the Church). The early Christians considered Isreal to pre-figure the Church in its struggles, and interpreted the OT accordingly. The outlook that the enemy of the Church (and God) is death was shared universally by the early Christians as may be seen not only from the Gospels, but the later writing. God "creates evil and woe" for his enemies (therefore also the enemies of the Church) by his victory against evil and death. If you find this far-fetched, I'd suggest a survey of the early development of doctrine (ccel.org has all you need). If that is too time consuming, you might try the first volume of Pelikan's history of theology. And Hart discusses this at length as well.
RFB  Wednesday, August 13, 2008 3:21 am
Thomas,

I find it interesting that by solely using that approach, some very plain words used in Isaiah 45 would have seemed to then not have any meaning to the contemporaries of the writer; no plain meaning. Almost the entire context of Isaiah 45 is God declaring His overwheening sovereignty to anyone reading it. It is a strong and clear statement of sovereignty: I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things...Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?...
AdamR  Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:14 am
Jeff, I agree, and I think that Piper's books, while still very good, are trying to solve a problem that isn't very difficult if you just bring the trinity in. But God is still three in one, and that one is God, which can be spoken of as seeking His own glory. The only trouble comes from the common unitarian assumptions that contemporary evangelicals come to the table with.


One does not seek his own glory, and God doesn't. Each person seeks the glory of the other two, and in that way all are glorified. But all are still God, and so He does seek his own glory.

RFB  Wednesday, August 13, 2008 8:00 am
AdamR, "...He does seek his own glory." Yes, He does seek His own, and it is not problematic for Him to speak about it.
Isaiah 42:8 I am Jehovah, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, "Isaiah 48:11 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it; For how should My name be profaned? And I will not give My glory to another." God does not share His glory with anyone, and is jealous to maintain it, and His jealousy is righteous. John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." God seeks His own Glory, because it is His, and rightfully belongs to Him: 1 Peter 4:11 "...that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Jason Farley  Wednesday, August 13, 2008 8:19 am
how is denying ontological reality to evil anything but stoicism? Get over evil - it isn't real anyway.
Jeff Moss  Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:02 am
RFB, Thomas wasn't claiming that Isaiah's original hearers understood all the theological ins and outs...any more than they understood exactly what chapter 53 was going to be like in its fulfillment. I generally agree with Thomas that the Hebrew ra` ("evil") in Isaiah 45:7 refers to the woes that come upon the enemies of the Church to frustrate their purposes. However, the meaning is somewhat broader than just that. Sometimes God's enemies are members of the Church. Also, it may not be obvious until later just how these hardships ("evil") serve to bless the people of God and confound His enemies. But it's still true that that's what's happening.



Certainly, Isaiah 45 is God's statement of His all-encompassing sovereignty. But it doesn't say anything that would make Him the "author of sin" (WCF). "Evil" does not work well as a translation for the Hebrew ra` in modern English, because the Hebrew word can refer to all sorts of things that are bad, unwelcome, or unpleasant, not just to moral evil. In context, God is speaking to King Cyrus, reminding him that He is sovereign even over emperors--and that both prosperity (shalôm or "peace") and adversity (ra` or "evil") are His handiwork.
Jeff Moss  Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:02 am
In my humble opinion, Calvinists are more severely tempted to make it sound like God is the author of sin, than to try to excuse Him from responsibility by saying that it didn't happen on His watch. We need to be especially careful not to fall into the first ditch when we're debating Christians who don't happen to be Calvinists, but know how to quote the Bible.
RFB  Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:41 am
Mr. Moss, I was not suggesting nor do I think that God is "the author of sin", and I say that without exception. Nonetheless, I do believe that God ordains all that is. I cannot explain how He does, just like Job could not describe how to create a constellation. Nonetheless, "the Bear, Orion, and the Pleiades" all bear witness that He can.
Wonders for Oyarsa  Thursday, August 14, 2008 5:42 am
but in comparison your tone and manner have been far more prickly, abrasive, condescending and over the top polemical than theirs. If God treats us all as you say, then show us what that looks like.



Doug, I just need to take extreme exception to this. This is not what I've observed at all, and for you to say this is downright partisan.
thomas  Thursday, August 14, 2008 6:21 am
RFB,

Jeff pretty much summed up what my response would be. It is a poor idea to attempt, as Christians, to understand the Old Testament as its hearers would have. When the early Christians appropriated the Old Testament for themselves, they argued precisely that the Jews did not understand the ultimate significance of the Old Testament, and could not have. Christ, the incarnate son of God, reveals the meaning of the Old Testament. This doesn't mean that the ancient Jewish interpretation was wrong; it means that the Christians transformed its meaning onto a new level.
Wonders for Oyarsa  Thursday, August 14, 2008 7:17 am
Hi Thomas,



Naturally I strongly agree with everything you've said here. But I might qualify that I do see a danger in the (as I see it) overly subjective allegorization of the Old Testament done by some of the fathers in the Alexandrian school of interpretation. Not that I think they were wrong, but I do think there is some value in understanding the OT as the Hebrews understood it - provided we don't remain there.



What I mean is that, looking at the OT through modern eyes, the God of Israel does come across as needlessly harsh and cruel. It is when we strip off modern blinders and read through the eyes of the ancients that we can see just how much the scriptures were meant to reveal the Lord who is "slow to anger, abounding in lovingkindness, though by no means clearing the guilty". If we really see it as the Jews say it, we will find (as the Orthodox say) against all odds "a good God, who loves mankind".



Of course I agree strongly on your central point. But I would simply qualify that the original Jewish understanding is best not wholly neglected, but taken up and transfigured by the revelation of Christ.
Wonders for Oyarsa  Thursday, August 14, 2008 7:19 am
Take this reflection on the book of Obadiah, for instance. We need to see the Lord's just wrath against Edom for betraying his brother, for casting lots for Israel's clothing while he was taken into exile. We need, if just for a moment, to feel just how treacherous and appalling to the covenant God their sin is. If we have not stood there, and cried out for God to burn up the house of Edom as stubble, we will no doubt be guilty of trivializing sin in our hearts.



It is then that we can then pierce back into the deeper meaning of Obadiah - and see that the one for whom they cast lots for was none other than Christ himself, and Edom is none other than the people of Israel who have rejected their king and kinsman to the gentiles. It is then that we hear, with full force and truth, his words from the cross "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." It is then that we can pray that our eldar brother's wickedness is consumed with no survivor - not for our brother's destruction as was supposed, but for his salvation. We can pray good for him who is our enemy in terms of the gospel, because we want even his salvation from sin and death (which will be none other than life from the dead).
Jeff Moss  Thursday, August 14, 2008 12:20 pm
Wonders, excellent points on interpreting Obadiah. Amen!



Just wondering...what's your online name a reference to? Is it that scene in Out of the Silent Planet where Dr. Ransom spends some time alone with the Oyarsa of Malacandra and tells him the history of Earth and of the Incarnation, and then Oyarsa says something like, "There are more wonders in the world than I ever imagined"?
Wonders for Oyarsa  Thursday, August 14, 2008 1:07 pm
It just might have something to do with that. Click here to find out for sure.