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Atheism and Apologetics - Doors of the Sea
Written by Douglas Wilson   
Saturday, 16 August 2008 16:17

Hart's second section in the second half of his book depends almost entirely on good writing, a goodly dose of mysticism and lots of handwaving. Here is how that section concludes:

"It is impossible for the infinite God of love directly or positively to will evil (physical or moral), even in a provisional or transitory way: and this because he is infinitely free" (p. 70).

But a few pages before this, he had said:

"To say that he who sealed up the doors of the sea might permit them to be opened again by another more reckless hand -- is not to say that God's ultimate design for his creatures can be thwarted" (p. 63).

Amen to the last phrase, but in the first part Hart is trying to do what theologians call "having it both ways." Ah, so God permitted the doors of the sea to opened by a hand belonging to some deranged invididual. Did he permit it on purpose, or no? Was His permission direct or indirect, and who the hell cares? Did He will to permit this carnage, or did He just permit it . . . you know, while sleeping?

If God permitted it, He, being who He is, did so intelligently, knowing the consequences of that permission. If He grants that permission anyway, the entirety of Calvinism follows, with some Christians in those ranks grinning sheepishly. The only way to get Him off the hook is by denying that He gave permission, in which case the cosmos is officially off the rails. But even there . . . for those who believe that God created ex nihilo, we have to affirm that He knowingly created a cosmos that was capable of going off the rails. Did He will to do this, or did He just do it? Repeat the drill from above.

The failure here is a stiking failure of imagination, and it is striking because Hart clearly has significant aesthetic gifts. The problem is that he cannot use them on this topic without beginning to see that great spritual insights were given to Scots covenanters, and not just to men with names like St. Bonaventure and Maximus the Confessor.

Hart's failure comes from the fact that he is trapped in a realm where the ontologies are real, and the stories are not.

"Christian thought, from the outset, denies that (in themselves) suffering, death, and evil have any ultimate value or spiritual meaning at all. It claims that they are cosmic contingencies, ontological shadows, intrinsically devoid of substance or purpose, however much God may -- under the conditions of a fallen order -- make them the occasions for accomplishing his good ends" (p. 61).

So why does ontology have pride of place? Who died and left ontology king? The story is the thing -- not the natural theologians with their engineered mechanisms (Hart has a point there), but neither should we give way to the subtle metaphysicians who have the kind of mind that could visit someone in agonies on his deathbed, and wonder what his pains "were made out of." One it is concluded that ontologically they were made out of nothing, such a one can go home with his hands in his pockets, whistling.

In the story of this world, evil contributes mightily to all the major plot points. Since the story is the thing, it cannot be a nullity, not if you understand narrative, narratival theology, or the necessity of faithful and biblical imagination.

But Hart lumps all advocates of what he calls "theodicy" into the camp of natural theologians, those who fuss around with their stainless steel mechanism. It is quite plain that Hart is entirely unaware of the great imaginative works by "theodicists." I am not going to say who they are -- I think Hart should look them up.

"A sound 'natural theology' is by definition sober and (ideally) mildly depressing since it cannot assert anything more about the world than that it possesses a marvelous complexity of design, nor anything more about God than that he is an immeasurably wise and powerful engineer" (p. 57).

Nice try, but the choice is not really between the planners and the mystics. The choice is between competing Christian visions, each of which have encompassed large numbers of people, and consequently have contained many soldiers, sailors, mystics, engineers, poets, singers, bread-bakers, and merchants. And then Hart undertakes to settle this by comparing his poets with our system-builders. Maybe we shouldn't do it like that.

Hart urges loyalty to his "plan" with these words:

[There is] "no perspective from which a finite Euclidian mind can weigh eschatological glory in the balance against earthly suffering, the rejection of God on these grounds cannot really be a rational decision, but only a moral pathos" (p. 69).

You know, taken out of context, that's actually pretty good. Or, as one of our guys put it:

"Farther along we'll know all about it/Farther along we'll understand why/Cheer up my brother, live in the sunshine/We'll understand it all by and by"

And we will, too, that's the thing. This is not, Hart to the contrary, a desire for "total explanation" (p. 68). This is not "banal confidence in 'God's great plan'" (p. 70). God doesn't have to come to me in the Eschaton and explain how He wiped every tear. It is sufficient for me to know that He will wipe away every tear, including the tears of little girls I never heard of, because that is what He has promised His people, and no remainders.



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StevenWedgeworth  Sunday, August 17, 2008 4:55 am
Pastor Wilson,

With the exception of your postmodern critique of being, which seems unnecessary, this is a fine response.


You are exactly right to see that Hart picks and chooses his tradition on this one, opting for the hip at all costs. Being academic does not keep it from being at the same time post-adolescent.


I don't think we have to send Hart to the covenanters though. We could simply send him to Aquinas, Anselm, and Augustine. In fact, I kept thinking as I read this, "You know who would provide a good critique of Hart on theodicy? Hart on Augustine."
Matthew N. Petersen  Sunday, August 17, 2008 6:32 am
Hart's failure comes from the fact that he is trapped in a realm where the ontologies are real, and the stories are not.



I have a couple of problems with this sentence: first, just earlier, you said he should be looking to Scotch Covenanters. But in fact, here, you aren't drawing on Scotsmen at all, but on a West-Midlands Catholic Philologist, and one who would violently disagree with you.



And second, I don't think you are at all fair with Orthodoxy or with St. Maximos the Confessor here. And anyway, at a far more fundamental level, this world is not a story, but individual people, and together a Bride.



Nor do I think you're really interacting with him. First, he does not in any say that there will be remainders, and it's just silly to suggest he does.



But second, the disagreement is not over whether God has taken up evil into his story, but whether He intended to include it. You cannot point to the fact of evil to prove that God intended it.



And third, so perhaps there are Calvinists who are more mature than his opponents. But still his opponents exist, and if Calvinism is what Calvinists believe, his criticism of Calvinism is accurate.



And finally, there is a world of difference between "chooses to permit this because he wants to give us great good" and "chooses to found his great good on this evil."
Matthew N. Petersen  Sunday, August 17, 2008 6:34 am
There is still the point about God intending evil, but if we say God allowed evil to continue (something I do not believe) because He so loved his Bride that He could not bear to see her perrish, and he saved her from evil the most effective way possible (perhaps even ending it immedately is not logically possible); and saying that God had some purpose in evil.
Douglas Wilson  Sunday, August 17, 2008 7:51 am
Steven, did you mean my privileging story over ontology? Being charged with postmodernism in any area is going to be quite a feather in my cap.

Matt, if you are referring to Tolkien, that is just one of many magnificent stories. The fact that he would differ with me doesn't keep his story from being something I can use as an illustration. And I have nothing against Maximus -- the problem is with the narrowness of Hart's selectivity, not with his selections.

And the problem with your assertion of a great difference between "permission in order to achieve great good" and "choosing to found" is that just a few days ago you were charging one of our Calvinists with talking nonsense for making just this distinction.
Gianni  Sunday, August 17, 2008 8:12 am
Probably Hart would differ on what to do about it, but his starting position on evil reminds me of Christian Science -- you know, the cult: Mary Baker Eddy, evil is nothing and unreal, and so forth. Sounds a bit like that. Is that a long shot?



This review makes me so willing to read again Mark Twain's hilarious book-length take on Christian Science and their denial of evil. It starts with Twain falling over a cliff in Austria and hurting himself, and then a Christian Science lady offers to "cure" him. If that begins to sound like Douglas Wilson suffering from a toothache, and discussing with fans of David Hart, you are paying attention to this review.



By the way, Pastor Wilson, I so hope you meant to write that Hart's failure of imagination is stinking, but I fear you will disappoint me.

Matthew N. Petersen  Sunday, August 17, 2008 10:07 am
Gianni



Have you read Out of the Silient Planet? Hart's talking about what Lewis calls a bent good.



Pr. Wilson



Regarding Tolkien: That we should see the world as a story is not, so far as I know, something you learned from Covenanters, but from Tolkien. You made this rather explicit a couple of posts ago when you titled it "Eschatology Eucatastrophy." That's all from "On Faerie Stories." He may be right, and he may prove Calvinism, but it would be fair to cite him, and to point out that you are taking his thought in a very different direction than he would want.



Regarding the other point, I'm not sure where you're talking about.
StevenWedgeworth  Sunday, August 17, 2008 1:27 pm
Pastor Wilson,



Yes I was having some fun with you. You did fall into the story vs. ontology thing though, so I think some ribbing was in order.


The "king" for all of our paradigms is God, who is eternal story-teller as well as eternal being. Speech and "being" are the best of buds. The story exists.
Gianni  Sunday, August 17, 2008 4:53 pm
Matthew, have you read Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures? and Twain's book on Christian Science? Lewis may have been Hart's inspiration, but it all boils down to the fact that this review and your conversation with Douglas Wilson keeps reminding me of Twain talking with a certain lady in the Alps. It's all about denying the cat -- see the first installment of this review.



I haven't yet read On Faerie Stories. I came to the "world as a story" position years ago the easier way (or in a sense the harder way), reasoning from Calvinism, so it is perfectly possible to owe nothing to Tolkien here. (Not that owing everything to Tolkien would be a bad thing.)

StevenWedgeworth  Sunday, August 17, 2008 10:55 pm
Yeah but sin as privation of being is classic theology- Augustine, Athanasius, Aquinas, etc. Everybody ever, including most of the Reformers, taught that sin is an absence or distortion of the good.


There's no need to beat Matt up for that point.
Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, August 18, 2008 5:01 am
Pr. Wilson



I think the difference between what I'm saying and what the Calvinist said earlier is as follows:



First position: A parrent sees a child doing something that will really hurt the child--an make it harder for him to grow up. The only way for the parrent to stop the child would be to kill him. But the parrent loves the child, and wants his company, too much to kill him, so he lets his child hurt himself and then raises him up anyway.



Second position: A parent sees a child doing something that will really hurt the child. But the parrent decides that if he allows the child to hurt himself, he'll be able to give the child something really really good later. So he lets the child hurt himself.



Third position: A parent wants to help a child, and decides that the best way to bring this about would be for the child to hurt himself. So he puts something out, in order that the child would use it to hurt himself, and then through this gives him good.



The first does not fail Hart's test, the second and third, which are radically different from the first, do.
Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, August 18, 2008 5:17 am
I think part of the problem with Hart's position, and what Pr. Wilson is trying to get at with his privledging story over ontology is, as Finrod says to Andreth in "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" (in Morgoth's Ring) that if Satan has power to create death or suffering, his power is beyond anything we can immagine, because he has power to create and not only to mar; and therefore we must say that even death and pain are marred creations of God.



But I'm not sure I'd blame Hart for that oversight as I don't know of anyone besides Tolkien who has even addressed that argument.
Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, August 18, 2008 5:19 am
Or maybe I should say that "as Finrod says...death and suffering are things and not nothing, and if Satan has power to create them and not only to mar them..."
Gianni  Monday, August 18, 2008 7:14 am
Hello Steven.



Well, I was actually mostly thinking loud about Hart, then Matthew started asking me questions.



Yes, you are right, sin as privation of being is commonplace, but somehow it never occurred to Mark Twain that Aquinas' position regarding evil was problematic.



What caught my eye is how often in this discussion Wilson has to go back and remind his opponents that evil actually occurred, and that God has in fact really permitted it, and how that is an actual fact, and that they need to get over it. And just as with Twain, the discussion at times borders on the surreal.



If Wilson keeps doing it, it means he thinks there's a blind spot here that is not present elsewhere. I have never read Wilson chiding the Reformers in this regard.



Yes, of course there are many differences, but my point is simply that Twain on Christian Science may be profitable reading for people who want to learn how to be a simple man when confronted with a theology gone awry.
Jane Dunsworth  Monday, August 18, 2008 7:33 am
Matthew, I see two reasons why your first option isn't one that fits with God.

First, unlike an earthly father, God has the means at his disposal to stop the child by simply making the harmful thing go away entirely, or otherwise infallibly impeding the child from engagin in it. He doesn't have to kill the child to prevent it.

Secondly, for God, killing one of His children doesn't entail separation from them. So the dilemma presented, doesn't exist. So again, we come back to the question of, if the temporal experience of evil isn't at some level an outworking of the way God wants things to be, why doesn't He just get rid of it entirely at this moment, or why did He allow it to come into existence in the first place?

Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, August 18, 2008 7:48 am
Jane



Regarding your first point, I believe James Jordan would say that the tree was there in the garden that Adam and Eve would eventually eat of it, and also, that they would learn obedience by not eating it.



And at least one of the classic answers is given the tree and man's ability to eat from it, God could not simply stop man from eating it without making man merely an object and not a person. And after man had eaten it, had God simply undone the evil, man would still be an automata--able to freely choose, so long as he chooses what he's told to do--and perhaps even would have destroyed man. That's the position Dante holds anyway.



Yes, I agree that, by the death of Christ, death does not mean separation from God, but unity with Him--"If we die with Him" means we can die with Him, that is in unity with God. But death there was a metaphor for completely unmaking and recreating. Like God threatened to do to the Israelites, only more drastic.
Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, August 18, 2008 7:52 am
Gianni



Christian Science--which Chesterton cursed as a philosophy that denies the Christian doctrine of the Resurrection and the Scientific doctrine of cancer--says that suffering and evil are but illusions. I'm saying nothing of the sort.



My point is that although it seems that the fact of evil is something we must start with--after all God could have been a big huge Rockefeller and rained goodness down on creation--implies a seriously flawed understanding of God. God is not a philanthropist. God is a saint. God is not like Rockefeller, He is like Mother Theresa. And He has utterly destroyed evil, making (as Isaiah says) even our sins white as snow, by suffering it with us. So now even our loss is loss with God, even the injustice we suffer is injustice we suffer with God, even our pain is pain with God, even our God-forsakenness is union with the God-forsaken God. And thus all this evil has been destroyed now. It is not evil, but paradoxically, in Christ, good.
Gianni  Monday, August 18, 2008 9:26 am
I'm saying nothing of the sort.



Matthew, I know. My point was another, please go read it.



It seems to me that your theology is way too dependent on extrapolations from metaphors -- sorry, from some metaphors. God as a Father, that seems to be your favorite. As a result, you routinely oversimplify the intention of God. Yes, God is a Father, and a father loves his children. But you know, God is also a Potter. And He is a Hunter, skilled in setting traps. And He is a King, marching forth to slain His enemies. I don't see this variation of themes and imagery in your writings. There you go again in your latest reply. God is not like Rockefeller. But of course in some respect God is like Rockefeller, don't you think? This inability to see God in more than one role is not simply unfortunate, it is dangerous. It's like you are eating only peanut butter.
Gianni  Monday, August 18, 2008 9:26 am
The biblical metaphors for God are varied and they are designed to check each other out, to provide boundaries, limits, checks and balances, lest we carry some extrapolation too far, in any one direction, from what is the case with God's dealings with man. God is a Father, but it is irresponsible to talk about it as if the Bible hadn't also said that God is not Father of all, that some are the devil's offspring, that we are all children of wrath by nature, and that one becomes a child of God by adoption. Not to speak of the metaphors for God that limit the Father imagery in other ways.



How about trying to reason from some other metaphor? Is your grasp of biblical imagery really so poor? Biblically, it is God's intention to glorify Himself in the damnation of sinners. He is the Potter, and doesn't the Potter have the right to make some vessels to dishonor? How does that metaphor limit and control your use of the Father imagery?
StevenWedgeworth  Monday, August 18, 2008 10:32 am
First position: A parrent sees a child doing something that will really hurt the child--an make it harder for him to grow up. The only way for the parrent to stop the child would be to kill him. But the parrent loves the child, and wants his company, too much to kill him, so he lets his child hurt himself and then raises him up anyway.



Matthew,


I believe that this construct would imply a passible, and thus finite, God.


The parent is being acted upon in this scenario, because he is placed in a dilemma where his original plan has been changed, and he needs to choose between multiple options in order to best react.


So, if I may quote you, you are injecting temporality into the infinite.


And do remember that the divine will is coterminous with the divine essence, and so changing the divine will means changing the divine essence (i.e. bad stuff).
Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, August 18, 2008 10:48 am
Steven



I think if we stick with precisely that scenario, you are correct. I was putting those up as outlines of various options. I have to run, but I'll try to get something up later to flesh it out a bit.
Wonders for Oyarsa  Monday, August 18, 2008 11:02 am
Gianni,



I do think it dangerous that you want to relativize father language as "metaphor". The trinity is not meant to be metaphor, like speaking of God as a hunter, warrior, or potter might be. Jesus isn't "like a son", nor is the one he called "father" simply like a father. Nor is the one he sent simply "like a holy spirit".



It's absurd to speak to Matthew as if he has some fetish for a cute metaphor by calling God our Father. If Jesus taught us anything, he taught us that we are to refer to God as "Father". No prayer of Jesus referred to God as potter, or warrior, or anything else - and no prayer he taught us does. The language of father and son is not something to be "tempered" with "other" metaphors if we are to follow the Son (not, mind you, the being who is "like a son") and speak to God the way he taught us.
Jane Dunsworth  Monday, August 18, 2008 11:42 am
"God could not simply stop man from eating it without making man merely an object and not a person. And after man had eaten it, had God simply undone the evil, man would still be an automata--able to freely choose, so long as he chooses what he's told to do--and perhaps even would have destroyed man. That's the position Dante holds anyway."

IOW, allowing the evil to exist serves a higher purpose, which is precisely what the rest of us are saying. God is not constrained to make man something other than an automaton (if in fact, that is what the absence of evil from the world implies. More on that in a moment.) He was free to remove the evil entirely. Yet, He chose not to. The scenario of God being constrained to watch the child either sin or die still isn't established.

As for the absence of the possibility of evil implying a lesser thing than its presence, that creates a problem for the reconstituted Heavens and Earth, doesn't it? If man would have been an automaton in Eden if the temptation had not occurred, we'll be nothing but automata in the age to come.

Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, August 18, 2008 12:32 pm
Gianni



I mostly agree with Wonders. We ought to think of sins of Satan as prodigal sons of the Father. So the question back at you is: would you ever encourage a non-Christian to pray the "Our Father"? A Catechumen?



There is the one exception of a central prayer that calls Christ a warrior "Holy Holy Holy, Lord God of Armies..." but that must be balanced against the reference in the Song of Songs to us as a squadron of troops before which Christ stands terrified.



Jane



However you want to parse that, the higher good is not one that the evil adds to in any way. God doesn't keep evil around because through the evil he can acheive a higher good, rather He keeps us around because He wants our higher good. And not even evil will prevent that.



Regarding automata: I did not say Adam would have been an automaton had the temptation not occured, I said had God tied Adam's hands so he was free, so long as he did what he was told, he wouldn't be free.

But like I said, I think this position comes up a little short.
StevenWedgeworth  Monday, August 18, 2008 1:44 pm
ut that must be balanced against the reference in the Song of Songs to us as a squadron of troops before which Christ stands terrified.



Matt,


With all due respect (Yes, I'm quoting Ricky Bobby), you say some crazy stuff.
Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, August 18, 2008 2:44 pm
Steven



Who is the Husband in the Canticle? But He says "Fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army with banners." Perhaps that should be "terrible as the stars in their courses." But we still have Christ describing us as terrifying. Similarly "avert thy eyes for they have overcome me." And "A fountain of gardens, a well of living waters, and streams from Lebanon."
Jane Dunsworth  Monday, August 18, 2008 2:53 pm
Well, Matthew, since we're making incessant references to the literary imaginations of 20th century fantasists, I've just gotta say it: the distinctions you're making are to me like a fruit that has no taste.
Wonders for Oyarsa  Monday, August 18, 2008 2:57 pm
Steven just feels funny about Jesus sing about how his hair is a flock of goats and his breasts are two fawns...
Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, August 18, 2008 3:13 pm
Regarding the earlier quote:



I think I would actually say that if we say that God cannot, without change, actually interact with and be affected by this world, we are assuming God is not infinite, or perhaps God is unitarian. I'll get at that two ways.



First, consider Christ. Like any child, Christ learned everything from His parrents. The Word learned words from His parrents. Mary's features became God's features. We could even in a way say that God was in Mary's image. Mary's twitch of the mouth, Mary's likes and dislikes became God's likes and dislikes. Mary taught Goodness what good is. And later Joseph taught God. The one who fashioned the universe learned to fashion wood from Joseph. And when He was twelve, God learned even from Caiaphas and the other priests in the temple.



Jacob of Serug has an interesting phrase to describe this. He says that had God been unable to fit inside Mary's womb, He would have been bounded--bounded by smallness. But because He is unbounded, He is able to make Himself smaller than the virgin's womb. Precisely because God is infinite, He is able to actually interact with, and respond to, and in a way, be moved by us.
Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, August 18, 2008 3:13 pm
Getting at that another way, we know as rock solid truth that at least one man's prayers actually affect God. When the Man Jesus Christ prayed that the Father send the Holy Spirit, the Father and the Holy Spirit replied. Christ as man, prayed, and His prayers actually affected God. Precisely because God is infinite, He becomes man and God hears His prayers. And precisely because God is infinite, He comes upon us and makes us little infinites.
Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, August 18, 2008 3:13 pm
But there is still the question of God reacting to us, yet not changing. But this is a problem for any Christian. "Only begotten Son and Word of God, although immortal You humbled Yourself for our salvation, taking flesh from the holy Theotokos and ever virgin Mary and, without change, becoming man." God reacted to Mary, God was formed in the image of Mary, God grew more, and then less like Mary, and yet in all this, He never changed.



I think with respect to sin the answer is that just as Mary affected Christ, yet did not in any affect Christ, so sin affected how Christ, but did not in any way affect Christ, nor the universe, for the universe shall be, and would have been, filled all and all by Christ. Or to say that a different way, the Divine Plan is Christ. Not the plan includes Christ, or results in Christ, but is Christ. And for all our blustering, we cannot change that at all. Though we sin so He cannot come, He raises up Mary and Joseph. Though we kill Him, yet He resurrects Him from the dead. Though we kill Him, yet we merely enact (in our violent ways in need of redemption) the Eternal sacrifice of Christ to the Spirit by the Father, and His pain is but the pain the Son feels when He is Eternally sent from the Father to give life to the Spirit.
Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, August 18, 2008 3:17 pm
That first sentence was phrased wrong. It should be "if we assume that God cannot change means that He cannot actually interact to and respond to creation..."



And later I'm missing "way" "yet did not in any way affect Christ..."
Gianni  Monday, August 18, 2008 10:32 pm
Wonders,



Granted that God is the Father of Jesus Christ, and that He is our Father in Heaven, my point still stands. You say "Jesus isn't 'like a son', nor is the one he called 'father' simply like a father", but by this very wording (not ... simply) you recognize that they are also that. You can't say God is the Father, but He isn't like a father at all. The Father is still like a father, and even more properly human fathers are like Him -- and that is exactly why Matthew Petersen thought he can make some guesses about God based on what he knows about fathers. He was not appealing to what Scripture teaches about God the Father: he was reasoning from our common experience about fathers.



Even granting a pre-eminence to the fact that God is Father, that doesn't mean that God is not Lord, King, Potter, Hunter. This imagery is not all suddenly gone simply because it receives less media coverage. What is important is the context where a certain metaphor is used. The fatherhood of God has a context. And my point is that when asked about the role of God regarding the existence of evil men, Paul does not start talking about God as Father, but as Potter.
Gianni  Monday, August 18, 2008 10:33 pm
(Cont.) Of course, often the "language of father and son doesn't need to be tempered with other metaphors" e.g. when we pray. But I do think it dangerous that you want to ignore that God is a Hunter or a Potter only because that is not the way we have been taught to address Him in prayer. Jesus' father was a carpenter, even if I bet He always called him dad. Can't a father be a hunter? Isn't God king? Of course it's often risky to mix metaphors, and we don't need to superimpose them in order to make sense of them. But we can't pick and choose as we wish. Matthew Petersen is not talking about prayer, he is trying to tell us what goes on inside God's mind (so to speak) regarding the way the history of the world should or might unfold, and specifically regarding God's role in the rise of evil. In order to do that right, he needs all the help from Scripture he can get, and he needs to pay attention to context. My point is that he is being highly selective, and oblivious to context.
Gianni  Monday, August 18, 2008 10:36 pm
Matthew,



As for Mary and Joseph teaching God, Mary's likes and dislikes becoming God's likes and dislikes, and Mary teaching Goodness what good is, of course God didn't learn anything from his parents that He hadn't taught them before. Mary was a Jewish girl, and she was brought up in the fear of the Lord. All Mary has ever learned about goodness was taught to her ultimately by God. God prepared for Himself not only a people, but a family as well. Not one detail regarding Jesus' upbringing, childhood, friendships, general background, not even the mannerisms of his relatives and friends, was there by accident.



God is not ultimately acted upon, ever, not even in the case of Jesus. It all goes back to creation ex nihilo. Yes, prayer works, but He knows what we are going to ask before we do. Indeed, He meticulously planned the circumstances that infallibly prompted us to fall on our knees. The original point Steven raised still holds.
Matthew N. Petersen  Tuesday, August 19, 2008 2:45 am
Gianni



Yes of course, the Spirit came on Mary and so she was with Child. Precisely because she was taken up by the Spirit, she was able to actually affect God. By the power of God, God is in Mary's image. Because God is infinite and triune, God can, without change, be affected by us.



Or you could say that God isn't acted upon, but then none of us are for we must confess that Mary is the Mother of God, so inasmuch as you act on your children, Mary acted on God. God voided Himself and became nothing but Mary's Son. And He became who He is through the ministration of Mary and Joseph and the Law and the Jewish Priests. Even for a while he had some of Judas' mannerisms.

And I didn't just give any example of prayer. At least in the case I gave it is a very shortening of prayer to say "Yes, Jesus' prayer works, but His God knew what He was going to ask before He did. Indeed, He meticulously planned the circumstances that infallibly prompted Him to interceed for us."



Or at least, given the infinite freedom of the Son, it does not imply Calvinism.
Gianni  Tuesday, August 19, 2008 4:38 am
What?
Matthew N. Petersen  Tuesday, August 19, 2008 5:38 am
Gianni



One way we can bless someone is by thankfully receiving a gift from them. And God is so good that He was able to thankfully receive a gift from Mary. If He is too big to become small, He is smaller than if He is so big He can become small. And Christ is so large He can, without change, receive gifts from us that actually affect Him. Mary's blood actually nourished Him. Mary's milk actually sustained Him. And for that He is grateful.
Gianni  Tuesday, August 19, 2008 6:59 am
Matthew, you miss the point entirely. You are saying that God is sometimes being acted upon, but I pointed out that even in these examples you offer He is always ultimately the Originator. You appear to agree. But then you are left with no response to Steven, who pointed out that your "first position" above would imply a passive, finite God, since you don't want God to be the ultimate Originator there.



And Matthew, now that we know where to look for proof that God is a pusillanimous Warrior, could you tell us also what is the locus classicus for saying that God is an incompetent Potter, or a clumsy Hunter?
Matthew N. Petersen  Tuesday, August 19, 2008 7:47 am
Gianni



But everything the Son has He has from His Father. But that does not in any way diminish his relationship with His Father, nor his gifts to His Father.



But I'm not sure you understood Steven's objection. He is not objecting to the idea that sin does not originate with God.



I suppose the passage that says He is an incompotent potter is the one that says sometimes he makes bad pots, the one that says He's a clumsy hunter the same one that says he's a lousy fisherman, the one that says he doesn't always catch us.
Gianni  Tuesday, August 19, 2008 9:07 am
Matthew,



I fail to see how your first comment is relevant to what I am saying.



Second, Steven objected to the biblical feasibility of your first position, which you said was okay for Hart. If that position is out, one is left only with position two and three, which you say are radically different from the first, and are not okay for Hart. This was the way you chose for summarizing "the difference between what I'm saying and what the Calvinist said earlier". So how am I misunderstanding Steven? And it's "parent".
Gianni  Tuesday, August 19, 2008 9:08 am
"I suppose the passage that says He is an incompotent potter is the one that says sometimes he makes bad pots, the one that says He's a clumsy hunter the same one that says he's a lousy fisherman, the one that says he doesn't always catch us."



Wow, now God is incompetent. You are kidding, right? If not, please show from the text how the bad pots are made unintentionally. Explain why a fisherman is lousy if he chooses to leave a fish in the river.



You have argued before that the source of comfort in front of evil and disaster is the certainty of God's victory. But what confidence can one possibly have in a positive outcome if the fate of the entire Creation rests on the shoulders of a pusillanimous Warrior, and in the dubious abilities of a clumsy Hunter, of a lousy Fisherman, of an incompetent Potter?
Matthew N. Petersen  Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:35 am
Gianni,



Gianni,



I was joshing with you a little there.



I think you misunderstood his reason for saying option one was biblically unfeasible, though I'm not sure I understand your objection well enough to explain why.
StevenWedgeworth  Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:49 am
Matt,


When you do your incarnation jujitsu stuff, you really need to keep in mind the communicatio idiomatum.


Strictly speaking, you are equivocating when you just say "God" in reference to Christ's being acted upon, for the purposes of this discussion. His divine nature is never acted upon.
Matthew N. Petersen  Tuesday, August 19, 2008 11:36 am
Steven



Of course the Divine Nature was not born of Mary. She is the mother of the Second Person, not of the whole Trinity.



But it was not just Christ, but the Second Person of the Trinity who was born of Mary.



And I believe I have Scriptural and Creedal ground for using "God" to refer to a Person.
StevenWedgeworth  Tuesday, August 19, 2008 12:02 pm
Sure, but you can't just keep using the term in discussions of passibility without qualifying which nature is being acted upon.
Matthew N. Petersen  Tuesday, August 19, 2008 12:47 pm
But it isn't a nature that's being acted upon, its the Person. And the paradox of our faith is that somehow without changing the Person responds to us.
StevenWedgeworth  Tuesday, August 19, 2008 1:57 pm
Eh, there's too much neo-Trinitarian jargon going on with that. The person is properly a divine one- a subsistence of the divine nature. It is most certainly not a person in the same sense that you and I are.


Thus when the person is acted upon in the sense in question, it is as it indwells the human nature.


Systematic theology is meet and right.
StevenWedgeworth  Tuesday, August 19, 2008 2:05 pm
Or more simply- The use of the term "person" is not simply a license to equivocate, else we could be monophysites with no problem.


When use use the term person to signify unity, we are always also confessing the distinction between the natures, with each acting as is appropriate to themselves.
Matthew N. Petersen  Tuesday, August 19, 2008 2:59 pm
Well, maybe I'm more Oriental than I should be (I quoted Jacob of Serug who was a Syrian Oriental Orthodox).



I don't like saying the person is a subsistence of the divine nature. That makes it sound as if nature is prior to person. "Here is one subsistence of the divine nature, here another, and here a third, but behind them all is the nature." No. "Here is a Person, the ultimate ground of all, Here is a Person, the ultimate ground of all, Here is a Person, the ultimate ground of all, and all three are One, but that One is not a forth."



The Father is the ground of the Trinity, and the Son and the Spirit are in His image, not the Father and Son and Spirit are expressions of a Nature.



The problem with the Monophysites is not that they said that this thing we touched is God Himself, but that they denied that the thing we touched was a man.



And I think I follow Bonhoeffer in saying that the Calchedonian formula completely blows apart our category of nature, and all we can say is "the man Jesus Christ is God."



But I suppose it isn't odd to find someone with Lutheran influences and someone with Calvinist influences accusing eachother of Monophysitism and Nestorianism respectively.
Gianni  Tuesday, August 19, 2008 6:08 pm
Matthew, I understand well why Steven objects to option one. But since I have shown that your counterobjection to him doesn't work, his objection still stands, and you are left only with what you call the "calvinistic" options.
Matthew N. Petersen  Wednesday, August 20, 2008 2:49 am
Gianni



As we disagree about what you've done, it's just rude to assume your side like that.
Gianni  Wednesday, August 20, 2008 7:56 am
Matthew, I beg your pardon, I say this not out of arrogance at all, but in order to clarify how my objection works, since you asked me: "I think you misunderstood (Steven's) reason for saying option one was biblically unfeasible, though I'm not sure I understand your objection well enough." You long for a clarification, I provide one, and I am rude for providing it?

Matthew N. Petersen  Wednesday, August 20, 2008 2:21 pm
I don't see how an assertion that your earlier objection stands is a clarification of your earlier objection.
Gianni  Wednesday, August 20, 2008 10:54 pm
Matthew, I thought you needed a clarification over how my point is related to Steven's objection, and how Steven's point and my point work together to show that you are left with only the calvinistic options.



Look, Steven objected to your first option as follows: "I believe that this construct would imply a passible, and thus finite, God." Notice he went on to clarify what he means in these words: "The parent is being acted upon in this scenario, because he is placed in a dilemma where his original plan has been changed, and he needs to choose between multiple options in order to best react. So, if I may quote you, you are injecting temporality into the infinite" (my emphasis).



You tried to counter this objection by pointing out that the infancy of Jesus, His relation with His parents, and the phenomenon of prayer show that what Steven deems impossible actually occurs. I replied that this is not the case, and that you miss the point, since in these cases God is not "placed in a dilemma where his original plan has been changed." God taught Mary who taught Jesus what God the Son had always known. Prayer is not what happens to God while He is busy making other plans, to kind of paraphrase John Lennon. As I said, it all flows from creation ex nihilo.
Matthew N. Petersen  Thursday, August 21, 2008 5:35 am
Gianni



But God isn't put in a dilemma where the original plan is changed, even on my view. My point is that just as possible differences in the treatment of Christ do not affect Christ, though they affect Christ, so to, differences in the outcome of the world do not affect Christ, though they affect Christ.
Gianni  Thursday, August 21, 2008 7:20 pm
Matthew, you wrote,



"I think the difference between what I'm saying and what the Calvinist said earlier is as follows: First position: A parrent sees a child doing something that will really hurt the child--an make it harder for him to grow up. The only way for the parrent to stop the child would be to kill him. But the parrent loves the child, and wants his company, too much to kill him, so he lets his child hurt himself and then raises him up anyway. . . [This position] does not fail Hart's test."



Now you say,



"But God isn't put in a dilemma where the original plan is changed, even on my view.



(Cont.)
Gianni  Thursday, August 21, 2008 7:21 pm
(Cont.)



So let me establish a couple of things.



First, after much confusion, denial, and apparent doubletalk, we finally learn that you do believe God has a plan, why, even an original plan. I take that to mean an eternal plan -- otherwise you couldn't say there's no difference at this point between your view and mine. So welcome to the club.



Second, after much apparent denial, we learn that you do believe that God's plan is unchangeable. Nothing that happens in your story, no matter how much drama, conflict and twists you inject in it, means that the parent (God) had to revise his original plan. This means that all the drama, conflict and twists were always settled and certain. It all happened according to the script. Yet God went ahead and created the world. Welcome also to this club.



Matthew, the next time you want to say you are a Calvinist, please make it shorter.