Banner
Still in the Reformed Tub PDF Print E-mail
Education - Education
Written by Douglas Wilson   
Tuesday, 14 December 2010 10:38

My colleague Roy Atwood discusses the news that a couple of Calvin College profs are now maintaining that Adam and Eve were literary figures -- you know, like Tom Sawyer, Sam Gamgee, and Felix the Cat. If you read carefully, you will see that these gentlemen take the Reformed confessions seriously, but not uncritically. Well, that's good to know. I would have thought it impossible to be circling the Christian drain while staying safely in the Reformed tub. But these guys are scientists, and I hear they can do a lot these days.



Add this page to your favorite Social Networking websites
Digg! Reddit! Del.icio.us! Mixx! Google! Live! Facebook! StumbleUpon! MySpace! Yahoo! BlogRolling! Twitter! LinkedIn! TwitThis
 
Comments
Search
Only registered users can write comments!
Jane Dunsworth  Tuesday, December 14, 2010 11:45 am
"No fall into sin?" Reformed? These guys aren't even Nicene!
The Scylding  Tuesday, December 14, 2010 12:04 pm
Does this imply that all non-literalists are circling the drain? Including Irenaeus, Augustine, Origen and others?

Just asking.
The Scylding  Tuesday, December 14, 2010 12:07 pm
Just to substantiate my earlier comment:

Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of the world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion [quoting 1 Tim 1:7].
(The Literal Meaning of Genesis, written in about AD 415. Noll, pp. 202-203, from the John Hammond Taylor translation of 1982)
Jane Dunsworth  Tuesday, December 14, 2010 12:15 pm
Scylding, I think identifying what is being objected to here as "non-literalism" is missing the the point somewhat. That's a bit like calling Unitarians "non-Calvinists." It's the rather more specific nature of what they are viewing as "non-literal" that is the problem here.
Matt Weber  Tuesday, December 14, 2010 12:40 pm
I'd say Adam and Eve were literary figures as well. It's a large leap of faith, to say the least, to believe that any of their exploits were recorded with any kind of accuracy. Granted, that is the orthodox position in most Christian denominations.

The professors go further than that, though, in that they deny that the story even means anything. How can a story teach a theological truth when the point of the story is not even true?
The Scylding  Tuesday, December 14, 2010 1:03 pm
Jane, the context of my Augustine quote specifically refers to Genesis. I wanted to quote Origen as well, but the system kept throwing it out. Nevertheless, I think I agree with Matt - here, namely that claiming that the story has no meaning is excessively non-sensical. But the link Doug gave to Atwood's article basically said that if Adam and Eve weren't literal, we can just as well abandon the whole enterprise and that salvation will be meaningless in that context. Hmmm. It is relatively easy to see that the literalism referred to in Atwood's article is not a nuanced view (like a geologist friend of mine, Old Earther but literal Adam), or something like that, but a full blown dyed-in-the-wool Ken Ham YEC'ist. That is something different, essentialy claiming that everybody who doesn't hold to that view (exactly), holds to heresy.

This implies that Irenaeus, Augustine, Origen and others are heretics as well.

I for one am not going to go there... sounds a lot like IFB'ism.
The Scylding  Tuesday, December 14, 2010 1:04 pm
That Origen quote:

"Now what man of intelligence will believe that the first and the second and the third day, and the evening and the morning existed without the sun and moon and stars? . . . I do not think anyone will doubt that these are figurative expressions which indicate certain mysteries through a semblance of history and not through actual events.”
Origen, On First Principles 4.3.1
The Scylding  Tuesday, December 14, 2010 1:21 pm
Also, Atwood's article disingenuously tries to make the case that a denial of the literist approach (to Genesis 1 to 11, I presume) leads to the denial of the inspiration of Scripture, and a whole host of other things, taking as example some Dutch Reformed prof. Sure. I guess CS Lewis and countless others forgot to read that memo.
Alwyn Swanepoel  - Recognizing the trajectory  Tuesday, December 14, 2010 11:04 pm
Scylding,

Even if you have some valid points, there is still a very definitive trajectory that can be seen and that come to the foreground time and again, not only with these profs. It seems that an evolutionary paradigm in our days leads to the same type of theology which emphasizes general revelation and therefore natural theology at the cost of special revelation, question marks on the substitutionary work of Christ and a tendency towards universal redemption for all. If these outcomes show up time and again, what must we do? Question the paradigm or nuance the paradigm? To me it sounds that you don't just want to nuance the paradigm but that you question the alternative paradigm being implied. Well then, let us at least agree on the paradigm that was first questioned in this post.
The Scylding  Wednesday, December 15, 2010 7:38 am
Not a good argument, Alwyn. Experience and/or observation would tell me that literalist belief is also often associated with fudamentalism, legalism and the belief that you are justified by faith in the right doctrine, not by faith in Christ.

Of course I'm not arguing causation. And neither should you/Atwood.

(Gaan dink 'n bietjie verder oor die argument, dan praat ons weer. :wink: )
Tim Enloe  Tuesday, December 14, 2010 3:33 pm
I'm puzzled as to why the only options allowed to be on the table are Calvin College or Literal-Interpretation-Reformed-Creationism. If I didn't know better, I'd say that some people - not the ones usually labeled such - are taking all their theological cues from modern science.
oldfatslow  Wednesday, December 15, 2010 3:47 am
The Word of God, it seems,
has not lost it offensiveness.
Men still wish to sit in
judgment of the Scriptures.


ofs
Jane Dunsworth  Wednesday, December 15, 2010 11:08 am
Scylding (and Tim), do you make no distinction between the literalness of the creation account, and the historicity of Adam, upon whose historicity Paul rests a significant soteriological burden?

THAT is why Atwood's concern runs a bit deeper than a defense of six day creation, and why even those who doubt the latter should be troubled by relegating Adam and Eve to storyland.
The Scylding  Wednesday, December 15, 2010 1:55 pm
Jane, I'll answer with a question:
Does the soterological burden depend on literal events, or on a typological representation of the truth about humanity? Does the sentence "Since sin came into the world by a man, so ....." require that both men (Adam and Christ) be literal, or is it possible for the first man to be figurative, and latter to be literal. Is the emphasis on consistent "literalness" not an anachronistic approach, that is, forcing modern categories on a decidely pre-modern script?

Just asking.
Charles Long  - re:  Wednesday, December 15, 2010 2:45 pm
The Scylding wrote:
Jane, I'll answer with a question:
Does the soterological burden depend on literal events, or on a typological representation of the truth about humanity? Does the sentence "Since sin came into the world by a man, so ....." require that both men (Adam and Christ) be literal, or is it possible for the first man to be figurative, and latter to be literal. Is the emphasis on consistent "literalness" not an anachronistic approach, that is, forcing modern categories on a decidely pre-modern script?

Just asking.


If we follow your trail here for a moment, then what is meant by "just as,... so..."? What you're suggesting is that when scripture says "Prob B is true in the same way that Prop A was true", what scripture really means to convey is that the two propositions really aren't true in the same way after all. To butress this, you've also suggested that our confusion on that point is attributable to our pre/post modern screw-ups.

Um Hmmm.

Yeah, I'm callin' your bluff on that one. I'd sure like to see you demonstrate your assertion that pre-modern literature is rife with the kind of doublespeak you're attributing to Paul. I have clamped down on the proverbial ankle here (as well we all should), and I won't let this pass.
Charles Long  Wednesday, December 15, 2010 2:49 pm
Of course, it goes without saying that the proverbial ankle to which I referred doesn't really exist -- there is no such thing as an ankle, in fact, nor a thing called a terrier... which is precisely why my allusion worked.

[/sarcasm]
Matt Weber  Wednesday, December 15, 2010 4:10 pm
Paul referring to Adam isn't conclusive either way. He obviously was going to refer to the story everyone knew, regardless of whether it was literally true or not. Given that even 2000 years ago the events of the fall would have taken place far back into time immemorial, Paul's generation would have no better way than us to ascertain the little details of exactly how it happened. None of this means the Biblical story isn't entirely correct, but believing in Adam and Eve as 'literary characters' doesn't necessitate the further step that our professors take; i.e. that the fall never happened at all.
Tim Enloe  Wednesday, December 15, 2010 4:59 pm
I have no problem with the historicity of Adam, or with the first 11 chapters of Genesis. I don't believe in macro-evolution, nor do I think that in order to intellectually survive Christians need to make peace with Darwinism.

All I'm talking about is the unjust, specious, and culturally-destructive manner in which the scope of these issues has been narrowed by the militant YECers among us. Not only have they made it almost impossible to carry on a really intelligent conversation about the interface of science and religion by falsely portraying the issues in a "digital" manner (Us, the True Faithful, vs. Them, the Craven Compromisers), but they've also shot the purpose of a liberal arts education in both feet by trying to make it fit modern American Fundamentalism's distortions of the Reformation instead of classical Christianity, Reformed.
Charles Long  - re:  Wednesday, December 15, 2010 6:11 pm
Matt Weber wrote:
Paul referring to Adam isn't conclusive either way. He obviously was going to refer to the story everyone knew, regardless of whether it was literally true or not. Given that even 2000 years ago the events of the fall would have taken place far back into time immemorial, Paul's generation would have no better way than us to ascertain the little details of exactly how it happened. None of this means the Biblical story isn't entirely correct, but believing in Adam and Eve as 'literary characters' doesn't necessitate the further step that our professors take; i.e. that the fall never happened at all.


But calling Adam a literary figure does do what it does do; and it does do what you just did. You say the people of Paul's day couldn't be expected to know or care whether the Genesis account was legit; but by that same math we, 2000 years this side of Paul, can't be expected to know or care what Paul actually said. I don't like that math. But more to the point: you must either embrace that math all the way, or not at all.
Matt Weber  Thursday, December 16, 2010 3:29 am
We know a lot more about Paul's time than we do, or Paul did, about times that existed long before the written word was even conceived of. That much is obvious. We don't need to embrace any math all the way or not at all unless it makes sense to do so. As the two cases are plainly dissimilar, it makes no sense to do so. It's the same old trick whereby the literalists (and the critics, often enough) say that if any part of the Bible is treated as mistaken on some detail then the entire Bible must be thrown out on principle. Sorry guys, it doesn't work that way.
Charles Long  - re:  Wednesday, December 15, 2010 6:13 pm
Tim Enloe wrote:
All I'm talking about is the unjust, specious, and culturally-destructive manner in which the scope of these issues has been narrowed by the militant YECers among us.


Tim, what in your opinion is the more reasonable position?
Jane Dunsworth  Wednesday, December 15, 2010 7:36 pm
Scylding, what Charles said. How does referring to something that never happened serve as a foundation to explain why Christ had to die and what His death accomplished?

Referring to a well known story is a useful literary device to analogize; it's utterly useless to provide the actual reason for something before that reason has otherwise been established.
The Scylding  Thursday, December 16, 2010 5:14 am
What Matt said.

Also, why can't Paul refer to a figurative prototype of all humanity, to dscribe/illustrate our sinful state, and the refer to Christ as the Saviour?

Incidentrally though, I did notice Jane that you refrained from enforicing full-blown YEC'ism in your comments.

Another question though - and this one is on a different level. Will it still work if you placed Adam in a different time and context, keep him real but makethe story more mythological (in the good sense of the word, as in true myth)? Geneticists think that all humanity today did have a common ancestor, ca. 200 000 years ago. So lets run with that for awhile: How about a 200 000 year old Adam, as opposed to a 6000 year old Adam? I'd like to see a response to that approach. (btw I am approaching this as a subject for discussion, not a defense/attack in an argument).
Charles Long  - re:  Thursday, December 16, 2010 6:48 am
The Scylding wrote:
Also, why can't Paul refer to a figurative prototype of all humanity, to dscribe/illustrate our sinful state, and the refer to Christ as the Saviour?


The reason is the structure of Paul's set-up. He's saying Christ is comparable to Adam. He's as real as Adam, as efficacious as Adam, as federal as Adam, etc. If Adam is none of those things in reality, then neither is Christ by Paul's math. Now it is theoretically possible that God could have chosen to save us by a mythical Christ as well, and that would solve the problem of Christ being like Adam (they'd both be mythical); but then none of it would be Christian. The general consensus among the orthodox is that there really was a guy named Jesus. Game over, thanks for playing.


The Scylding wrote:
Another question though - and this one is on a different level. Will it still work if you placed Adam in a different time and context, keep him real but makethe story more mythological (in the good sense of the word, as in true myth)? Geneticists think that all humanity today did have a common ancestor, ca. 200 000 years ago. So lets run with that for awhile: How about a 200 000 year old Adam, as opposed to a 6000 year old Adam? I'd like to see a response to that approach. (btw I am approaching this as a subject for discussion, not a defense/attack in an argument).


Fair question. But the first problem you'd run into is the geneology. The bible says Adam was a particular number of years old when his Seth was born, and Seth was a particular number of years old when his son was born, etc. The bible also tells us explicitly the number of generations between Adam and Noah, Noah and Abraham, etc. If we say Adam was 200,000 years old, then what do we do with all those geneologies? They are very particular, and they're either right or wrong. If they're wrong, then by what calculus do we determine the parts of scripture that are right?
The Scylding  Thursday, December 16, 2010 9:02 am
Jane, Charles, I don't think we're getting anywhere here. From where I sit it seems that you just seem unable to break through the inherent modernism in your reasoning.

BTW, next time you see van Till, give him a kick up the backside :)
Charles Long  - re:  Thursday, December 16, 2010 10:33 am
The Scylding wrote:
Jane, Charles... From where I sit it seems that you just seem unable to break through the inherent modernism in your reasoning.


This is entirely possible, which is why I asked earlier if this could be demonstrated. Show me the modern mistake I'm making. Can you do this, or is "modernism" simply the dismissive handwave of the day?
David DeJong  Thursday, December 16, 2010 2:13 pm
Charles: I would say your beliefs are modernist in the sense that they appeal to an objective historicity outside of the text as the touchstone for theology, without adequately first taking into account the nature of texts in the ancient world and the way they function.

I would also say your beliefs are modernist in the sense that this obsession with the "facts of history" as accessible "scientific" truths is a post-Enlightenment phenomenon. Many of the Church Fathers did not approach Genesis in the way you do, and yet none of them a) abandoned belief in Christ, or b) jettisoned trust in the Scriptures as a whole. Considering they were pretty smart guys, you'd think they would have done so...

On the genealogies: many Reformed interpreters caution us from using them for chronological purposes. There are gaps, etc. (and Scripture has no problem with that, in any of its genealogies, cf. Matt 1).
Charles Long  Thursday, December 16, 2010 7:15 pm
David,

Okay, so you're saying there are gaps in the Matt 1 genealogy. Say, for example, that Amminadab the father of Nahshon was really the grandfather of Nahshon. Meh.

But the geneaologies in Genesis are different. In Genesis, we are told how old each father was when the son was born. Let's take, oh, Genesis 5:12 for example. "When Kenan had lived 70 years, he fathered Mahalalel." So maybe Mahalalel is really Kenan's grandson, or great-grandson, not his actual son. But even if that's so (which I don't think it is, but even so), God has seen fit to tell us how old Kenan was when Mahalalel was born. The numbers are there, and they're either accurate or inaccurate. Which is it? And which fathers can you point me to who claimed that these numbers were all wrong, and that's just okay with them?

The ages of the patriarchs were included in scripture. I hear you saying that those ages were not included for the purpose of conveying to us actual age. Okay, then please explain what pre-modern purpose the inclusion of those ages serves. Is there poetic value to all the numerals? Is there some really wild mathematical chiasm going on? Or is it something else?

This seems like a shell game. Is there actually any affirmative evidence that the notion that those numbers were meant to communicate years of age is modern foolishness? Because honestly I can't help seeing this any other way than as a willingness to fillet scripture upon the altar of the pop-science flavor of the month.
David DeJong  Thursday, December 16, 2010 8:05 pm
These genealogies are highly structured and not meant to enable one to calculate the age of the earth. Both Gen 5 and Gen 11 have 10 generations, and conclude with a father who has three sons.

Problems with taking them literally: (1) Why would Gen 10:25 say that in Peleg's days the earth was divided, if in fact all his fathers were still alive? (2) Noah and Abraham would be contemporaries, and Seth (Noah's son) would have survived Abraham. The flood would have occurred only 292 years before Abraham (c. 2457 BC), but we have texts from this time period (Epic of Gilgamesh) for which the flood was already ancient history. Indeed, we have flourishing civilizations in the third millennium.

Scholars have shown that "A begat B" can mean "A begat line that ended in B." This means patriarch's total ages should be added, not their age from when they have first son. Their "age" is then the time that they served as the world ruler (cf. Sumerian king list). Cf. Albright, vanGelderen.

Scripture nowhere else adds up these numbers and presents the age of the earth (though some pseudepigraphical works do). It therefore teaches us that this is not their purpose.
David DeJong  - re:  Thursday, December 16, 2010 8:08 pm
Charles Long wrote:
Is there poetic value to all the numerals? Is there some really wild mathematical chiasm going on?


Not poetic, but many of them relate to astrology, and have most peculiar connections with the solar calendar (Enoch is the obvious one, but there are others. No time to dig up the scholarship for you right now.)
Charles Long  - re: re:  Friday, December 17, 2010 5:14 am
David DeJong wrote:
These genealogies are highly structured and not meant to enable one to calculate the age of the earth. Both Gen 5 and Gen 11 have 10 generations, and conclude with a father who has three sons.


The latter is evidence of the former? Structure is evidence against a literal interp? Seriously? I see structure between Christ and Jonah -- just to be clear, is that evidence that Jonah wasn't real, or that Christ wasn't real?

David DeJong wrote:
Problems with taking them literally: (1) Why would Gen 10:25 say that in Peleg's days the earth was divided, if in fact all his fathers were still alive?

I must admit I don't follow.

David DeJong wrote:
(2) Noah and Abraham would be contemporaries,


Well, if you mean Noah died within a couple years of Abraham being born, then yeah, they're contemporaries. So? How is this prima facia ridiculous?

David DeJong wrote:
and Seth (Noah's son) would have survived Abraham.


I don't think Noah had a Seth. But let's say he did. So?

David DeJong wrote:
The flood would have occurred only 292 years before Abraham (c. 2457 BC), but we have texts from this time period (Epic of Gilgamesh) for which the flood was already ancient history. Indeed, we have flourishing civilizations in the third millennium.


The United States is a good example of what you imply is impossible here. To see what this country has become in 250 years would blow Gilgamesh's head off. Also, if you look at the language of the Council of Nicea, you'll see they thought Christianity was "ancient" at that time.

David DeJong wrote:
Scripture nowhere else adds up these numbers and presents the age of the earth (though some pseudepigraphical works do). It therefore teaches us that this is not their purpose.


I do not see how the last sentence follows from the one preceeding it. How many different places would scripture have to add up the numbers before you believed that they were intended to be added? In fact, I almost expect that if scripture did repeat the numbers more than it actually has, you'd deny it then too, claiming it was "too highly structured" to be taken literally. As I said before, this seems like a shell game. But let's keep this protracted discussion going, until the list of scripture you've thrown under the bus is complete.
David DeJong  - re: re: re:  Friday, December 17, 2010 6:05 am
Charles Long wrote:

But let's keep this protracted discussion going, until the list of scripture you've thrown under the bus is complete.


The fact that you keep characterizing this as the issue with the alternate approach to the genealogies is rather frustrating. I know a YEC Reformed OT scholar who takes the approach I outlined above because of the evidence.

The point on Gen 10:25 is simple. It says, "in his days the earth was divided." What does that mean, especially given that--on a literalist reading--Peleg's "days" were also the days of all his fathers and grandfathers going back to the flood? Why are they uniquely called Peleg's days?

My apologies for the Seth/Shem confusion. I'm actually not sure what the point was supposed to be. I think that Seth and Noah would have been contemporaries (so curiously, you have the biblical insistence that Noah is the only righteous man, when most of his godly forefathers, including Seth, are alive).
Jane Dunsworth  Friday, December 17, 2010 7:32 am

Quote:
The reason is the structure of Paul's set-up. He's saying Christ is comparable to Adam. He's as real as Adam, as efficacious as Adam, as federal as Adam, etc. If Adam is none of those things in reality, then neither is Christ by Paul's math.


Exactly. This isn't an explanation by analogy, it is a logical deduction -- since Adam X, therefore Christ Y. If Adam X is not a real premise, there is no way to establish the conclusion that Christ really Y -- yet that is how Paul is using the argument.

By the structure of the argument, Paul here *isn't* using a mythic example, which I agree was a completely valid pre-modern way of discussing something, he's using a logical argument, Greek style. I don't think the Greek logicians would have been enamored of the suggestion that their premises were useful but unreal.
Charles Long  Friday, December 17, 2010 7:37 am
David DeJong wrote:
The point on Gen 10:25 is simple. It says, "in his days the earth was divided." What does that mean, especially given that--on a literalist reading--Peleg's "days" were also the days of all his fathers and grandfathers going back to the flood? Why are they uniquely called Peleg's days?
The most reasonable conclusion is that the events being described occurred during the time of the fathers' lives when Peleg was alive, and not before.

David DeJong wrote:
I think that Seth and Noah would have been contemporaries (so curiously, you have the biblical insistence that Noah is the only righteous man, when most of his godly forefathers, including Seth, are alive).
First, I don't think Seth and Noah were alive at the same time. I think Seth died (well, based on the chart I just glanced at) about 14 years before Noah was born. But give or take a few years, and still -- they're not exactly contemporaries. Noah was an old dude when he started swingin' a hammer. Methusela was the earliest father to die during the flood. Before him, there was nobody among the list of fathers previously declared righteous who would have been still alive when the world was declared corrupt.
Charles Long  Friday, December 17, 2010 7:41 am
Let me correct myself -- Methusela might have died right before the flood. Tangental detail, but still -- I'm not sure he died in the flood.
Tim Enloe  Friday, December 17, 2010 10:34 am
Charles, the more reasonable position is (1) to stop taking the present cultural dominance of "evolutionism" as our starting point for a theology of creation, (2) to quit allowing the psychological anxieties of American Fundamentalism concerning "Truth" and the "culture war" to determine the shape of our interactions with other Christians, and (3) for the militant YECers to quit pretending that they have superior insight into and fidelity to Scripture because they allegedly just believe its "literal" meaning and super-piously don't want "intellectual respectability" of "educated people," - which attitude leads to mere schoolboy-level jeering at those who are, allegedly, "embarrased by the Bible."

I don't have a dog in the fight over the age of the earth - I simply don't care, and I don't believe that Scripture says anything about it one way or the other. But alas, too many people think that having a dog in that fight is the ONLY way to carry on intelligent discussions about the interface between science and religion. It's EITHER militant YEC, complete with incessant, alarmist harping about extremists like these seminary professors, OR its a craven denial of the infallibility and inerrancy of the Bible.

This is all mere rhetoric, which, for those who have studied rhetoric, means that it is hovering right on the border of Sophistry. It's unreasonable, uncharitable, and unsustainable if one bothers to stop examining others for foolish compromise and instead spend some time examining oneself for evidence of the same.
Tim Enloe  Friday, December 17, 2010 10:50 am
One of the roots of this problem is the tacit Modernism of the militant YECers on all the related issues.

There's an unreflectively naive view of "literal interpretation" at work, and a failure to grasp the differences between ancient genres and modern ones that go by the same name: "history" and "facts" for Moses were not the same thing as they are for, say, Ken Ham and his ilk. It's bunk to claim that if one doesn't do history in a straightforward, purely chronological manner, then one is surrendering to a quasi-Liberal allegorization or spiritualization of "plain truth" that ultimately destroys the inerrancy of the Bible. This isn't respectable Reformed Theology, but Billy-Sunday pulpit pounding.

Concurrently, there is an unexamined "Bible Onlyism" which is incompatible with historic Reformed Theology. It's ironic that those who in the contexts of, say, ecclesiology and sacramentology, see so clearly the danger of "Enlightenment Calvinism" don't see it in their own extremely Cartesian approach to the Bible and its role in teaching us about the interface between God's Word and God's world.

Thirdly, there is trouble amongst militant YECers in grasping the simple point that, no, sorry, the Bible does not "say" that the earth is young. The idea that the earth is young is an inference made from various texts, and inferences can be wrong. Less hype about "what the Bible plainly teaches" and more critical self-examination about "why do I think the Bible even addresses this issue?" and "Is it possible that I'm making invalid inferences based on prejudices rather than on reason?" would be most salutary.
The Scylding  Friday, December 17, 2010 11:10 am
Tim, you have written here what I've been thinking, but due to time constraints haven't been able to put together in a response to Charles' question to me regarding his latent modernism. Thanks.

Also good points from David de Jong.
Charles Long  Saturday, December 18, 2010 6:16 am
Hypothetically, if the Holy Spirit were to reveal something today through an apostle (if there were such a thing), would the epistle written through revelation be thoroughly post-modern?

And if the Holy Spirit guided a modern-day prophet to write poetry, would it suck?

And would all inspired narratives be melodramatic and sensational?
Charles Long  Saturday, December 18, 2010 6:18 am
I should have also asked: Would it have been possible for Moses to have written an historical narrative, and if so, what would it have had to look like in order to be identified as such?
Tim Enloe  Saturday, December 25, 2010 6:28 pm
Charles, I don't know who you were addressing with the last remark, but I never said Moses' narrative is NOT history. I only said that history is not a genre that has to proceed according to rigid chronological and "factual" assumptions, as we Moderns define those things.

Now, how that works out in the interpretation of Genesis 1-11 is something that needs to be discussed. My only reason for even posting on this thread was because it is yet another example of the distressing tendency among "conservative" Evangelical and Reformed types to oversimplify complex issues, call that oversimplification simple fidelity to the Bible, and slur others with charges of being proto-Liberals, being embarrassed by the "plain sense" of Scripture, and just generally being weasels in a sad, sorry, age of "truth decay."

I don't have issues with people who believe the earth is young, so long as they aren't rhetorical jerks about it, and can place the whole issue - and their psychological approach to it - in the proper historical and philosophical contexts.
Gianni  Sunday, December 19, 2010 2:42 am

Charles, great job as usual.