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Fourth Installment of the Hitchens/Wilson Debate PDF Print E-mail
Atheism and Apologetics - "God Is Not Great"
Written by Douglas Wilson   
Friday, 18 May 2007 09:50

For those following this, the fourth installment of my debate with Christopher Hitchens is now posted at Christianity Today's web site. If you want to get there quickly, just click on this magic word.



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Last Updated on Friday, 18 May 2007 09:50
 
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Charles Long  Friday, May 18, 2007 10:43 am
"On your terms, you are just a random collection of protoplasm, noisier than most, but no more authoritative than any—which is to say, not at all."

[br][br]Noisier than most. phheeeewww... Okay, up off the floor, back in the chair....

[br][br] He STILL doesn't get it! I am really disappointed -- I was hoping to finally get to hear, right from the horse's mouth, how atheists derive moral objectivity. Very disappointing. My only disappointment with you, Mr. Wilson, is that you didn't ramrod that point right down his throat sideways in your last installment. Like a Mack truck. Oh, I know -- it seems reasonable to assume that such an intellectual giant as Hitchens could handle a little subtlety, or at least wouldn't NEED to have a point ramrodded down his throat sideways in order to understand that it needs to be addressed. Well, it appears that either he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer, or he's else he's more "coy" than he likes to admit.

[br][br]Meh. Any fool with half a brain can see you're mopping the floor with Hitchens.
Jason  Friday, May 18, 2007 2:37 pm
Like the "debate" between Ray Comfort and a couple of atheist deadbeats the skeptics will claim victory.

Much like Monty Python's Black Knight they don't know when they're licked.

As for Mr Hitchen's ability to grasp a relatively simple point "if you say religion is bad, how do you define "bad"?" A saying I'm fond of covers it. "there is a name for a smart atheist, we call them Christians."
RFB  Friday, May 18, 2007 5:30 pm
A friend of mine has admired CH in the past for his debating and reasoning skills. He was thoroughly flabbergasted at CH's "innate human solidarity" statement; so juvenile and Pollyanna-like as to be out of character for his normal so-called rhetorical skil. I explained to him my take: this time its personal. Being able to debate a topic well takes on a different flavor when your opponent is holding your head under water; it may wonderfully concentrate the mind, but it is hard to ignore. All the while that DW is debating the issue, there is one other thing going on. God has not left Himself without a Witness. And all the while that Doug is talking, way in the background all CH can hear is that Witness saying still and small: You are a dead man.
Kurtis Smith  Friday, May 18, 2007 6:30 pm
Before this debate on CT, I heard Hitchens give a speech entitled "The Moral Necessity of Atheism" at Sewanee – The University of the South. The phrase “moral necessity” piqued my interest. I listened carefully to the whole address, including the subsequent Q&A. My first impressions were twofold: First, Hitchens addressed nothing of the basis for an atheistic morality, let alone the moral necessity of atheism. But he did trot out embarrassing anecdotes from the history of religion. Second, I saw no reason to esteem Hitchens a serious or honest thinker. He spoke and meandered like one who has never glassed a clear epistemological self-image. Meanwhile, he criticizes Christians for not reading their critics, as he did during a recent book plugging interview with Sean Hannity.



I also note two ugly things at work in Hitchens’s activism. He appeals to the intellectual cheap seats in the secular coliseum, and for that reason, I find him and his fellow militants some of the most dangerous demagogues on Earth. Number two, at bottom, Hitchens behaves like the quintessential tyrant: “Just leave me alone! And do whatever I say!” He can’t see his obligation to justify his own moral edicts, yet he wields a scalpel in the nooks and crannies of every theistic viewpoint. He faults their mysterious and unfounded assertions but plays the hypocrite while the horror vacui waves all about his face.



Absent a shift in the atheist’s mindset, I hope the debate at CT ends early. Hitchens bores me.

RFB  Saturday, May 19, 2007 6:25 am
Mr. Smith,

As a self-imposed obligation, I owe you a frosted mug of barley soup. “Just leave me alone! And do whatever I say!” is a classic and a keeper. "Hitchens bores me" deserves a refill. "You can rob me. You can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
John Simmons  Saturday, May 19, 2007 9:52 am
Mr. Hitchens has yet to make any sort of argument. What he's written thus far adds up to an opinion and maybe a reason why you'd invite him to a debate, but that's it.

Pastor, he's no dummy. He understands your line of argument. Why do you think he's ignoring it?
Phil  Saturday, May 19, 2007 10:50 am
That's a good question, John. From the comments at the debate site, it seems like most of the atheists don't want to make a case for how or why an atheist can have a coherent, objective, authoritative moral code. You'd think Hitchens would've been better prepared to make some sort of defense.
RFB  Saturday, May 19, 2007 12:12 pm
He's not ignoring it, he has nothing substantive to provide. There is no case (in fact) to be made for an atheist to have a "coherent, objective, authoritative moral code". According to his own religion, his very existence is a randomly produced event occurring without intelligence, that now wants to stand up on its hind legs and proclaim rights, suffrage and authority based upon "innate human solidarity". Heh!
Patrick Gann  Saturday, May 19, 2007 3:14 pm
RFB is right -- he has nothing substantive to provide. And frankly, I don't think he believes he ought to have something to provide. The worldview he is in line with would state that "authority" need not matter. The fact is that things are functioning, and even if "innate human solidarity" is actually just a flowery phrase that means nothing in a materialist universe, it works. It reminds me of Francis Schaeffer's discussions with atheists on the nature of love: the man he's debating would always concede that "love" is ultimately a false concept (it's all hormones and convenience)...and then that man's wife would cry uncontrollably. Our options are hope (that there is God and meaning) or infinite sorrow (as life is meaningless). How men and women carry themselves from day to day thinking in the back of their head that "all this is meaningless" boggles my mind. Related idea: people cite Europe and Japan for having low crime rates and a strong secular foundation. Note also their SUICIDE rates. Soooo depressing.
Patrick Gann  Saturday, May 19, 2007 3:20 pm
Oh and PS - Wilson, good work! I'd someday love to sit down with you and talk about your strong Creationist standpoint. It works wonders for the sake of consistency in the Christian worldview, but a strong student of science has every reason to interpret Genesis 1 as poetry and accept scientific interpretations (a la the Big Bang) and accomodate them to religious ideas (that is, GOD made it happen, however it happened). I'm sure you've discussed it elsewhere on your blog, but I would love to someday have a chat with you about how and why you hold so strongly to Creationism (in person, email, whatever). If nothing else, I would ask, what is the *real* danger of a Christian submitting to the doctrines of "theistic" evolution and/or intelligent design? Evolutionary process need not be "survival of the fittest;" this is a metaphysical observation. It could instead be the hand of God guiding life into being.
John Simmons  Saturday, May 19, 2007 3:58 pm
Hitchens has nothing to provide, but he thinks that he does. But for some reason, he is avoiding making a case for it. I'm just interested in what the reason might be.
Fretensis10  Sunday, May 20, 2007 11:09 pm
I am going to have to dissent here. I don't think Wilson is making a strong enough argument. The "what's the basis of your morality" argument is getting tiresome. How some other powerful arguments to address Hitchens' criticisms of Christianity, such as: 1)acknowledge the evil done in Christ's name, but point out that this sin infects all human faiths. Every faith becomes dangerous when it is powerful- Wilson is letting Hitchens off easy by allowing him to cite only 'model' individuals like Jefferson and Russell as atheists- the correct analogy would be individual Christian saints. Secularism as a movement/ government has proven far deadlier than Christianity (Soviet Union, Communist Vietnam, Nazi Germany, etc). 2) Arguing thus also opens space to explain why Christianity's understanding of this sin is superior to all others. The idolatry in man makes him most ruthless and destructive the more certain he is of a Truth. Thats why religious claims (including secularism- like Marxism) can inspire such fanaticism. It may be very difficult, if nearly impossible, to keep man from worshipping his creation of Truth, rather than the Truth. And without a mechanism for repentance, the result is deadly- as the very secular 20th century has shown. Thankully we are given hope- in Christ.
Gianni  Monday, May 21, 2007 12:54 am
Fretensis10, Wilson's apologetics is devastating because he is asking Hitchens an impossible question -- yet a totally legitimate one. It's not like Wilson is holding his breath waiting to read what Hitchens' rationale for atheistic ethics might be. Contrary to what some people have said, Hitchens is doing the very best an atheist can do when facing Wilson's challenge. If there's no God, moral imperatives are gone, and the brightest atheist in the world can't bring them back. Wilson only needs to cry out that the king is naked, and you can bet he will. Christianity is good for the world because you need to presuppose its truth in order to even begin talking about what is good.


This is "tiresome" only in the same sense that it is tiresome to watch a soccer team winning 12-0. Sure, there may be more excitement and suspense in a match where we win 3-2, but why grant the enemies of the gospel the illusion that there is some merit to their unbelief, or that it's a close call between Moses and Darwin, or between Russell and Paul? Wilson goes for the jugular, and well he should. Not that this debate isn't entertaining in its own way. If you are looking for entertainment, look for it in Wilson's actual installments.
Keith LaMothe  Monday, May 21, 2007 1:08 am
Fretensis10, perhaps I'm missing something, but I think Wilson's continual pestering for Hitchens to justify his moral condemnations (and Hitchens's inability or unwillingness to do so) shows that Hitchens has no real solution to the evil in the hearts of men because he doesn't even have a defensible method of determining which of man's impulses/desires/actions/etc are evil and which are not.
Keith LaMothe  Monday, May 21, 2007 1:11 am
Patrick, I would also be interested in such a discussion on creation. I'm probably a bit more influenced by John Sailhamer's _Genesis Unbound_ than I ought be, though I still find the traditional view to be the most convincing).



I've yet to read it, but Jim Jordan's book on the subject is fairly high on my to-get list.
Gianni  Monday, May 21, 2007 1:13 am
Patrick, you are right that creationism is foundational to Wilson's apologetics. Evolution is their story, creation is our story. Pay attention to the unbiblical presuppositions behind all evolutionary thinking. On the front page of the typical textbook on, say, the origin of the Solar System, they should write: "If God didn't create it in six days, this is how we propose it may have all come about by itself." We should refuse to go along with them beyond this front page.


If God created the world, and if the creation week is over (Ex 20:11), studying present natural processes and extrapolating them back in time is not going to give any insight on how and when He did it, or on how long it took.
Jane Dunsworth  Monday, May 21, 2007 1:55 am
I agree with Gianni -- the only reason that Wilson's pestering is tiresome is that he simply wants the question answered, and is not getting an answer. What would make it less tiresome? To concede the point that since Hitchens can't answer the question, the question must not be important?
Matt Weber  Monday, May 21, 2007 11:35 am
Gianni, exactly how should a scientist approach the question of the origins of the cosmos if not by way of a naturalistic explanation? Do we all agree that science is only useful for the natural realm, and things that can be tested empirically? If so, then what possible explanation could science arrive at for something like the creation of the universe rather than a natural one? Science is never going to include God specifically, because God is outside the realm of what science can comment on. Given this, what should scientists do about the origin of species? Just say 'God did it' and go eat a sandwich?
Jane Dunsworth  Monday, May 21, 2007 2:54 pm
Matt, philosophically speaking, why shouldn't it be sandwich time? If someone wants to know who created a particular car, and someone else says, "Ford did it" and gives him credible reasons to believe that, should the first person keep tirelessly investigating where the car came from just because that's just what you do, or would it make sense for him to go eat a sandwich because he already knows the answer to his question?
Matt Weber  Monday, May 21, 2007 4:06 pm
The analogy would be more apt if a person wondered how the car was made, rather than who made it. Science can't tell you if God created the universe. It can tell you by what mechanism the universe came into existence, i.e. the natural processes. Why shouldn't scientists look for these, even if they contradict a particular reading of Genesis?
Charles Long  Monday, May 21, 2007 11:03 pm
It is one thing to seek to explain creation in naturalistic terms. But it is another thing altogether to make the a priori philosophical presupposition that the mechanism of creation must have been naturalistic.

[br][br]Sure, maybe the only tool in the mechanic's bag is a hammer. But is it reasonable for him to conclude that the car therefore must be held together with nails?
Kurtis Smith  Tuesday, May 22, 2007 11:22 am
Matt Weber asks some penetrating questions. I won’t claim to have perfect answers, but I’ll offer some random comments on one of them.



Matt asks, “How should a scientist approach the question of the origins of the cosmos if not by way of naturalistic explanation?”



First, notice how Matt frames the question in a closed manner. To the materialist, the answer must be a forgone conclusion, lest the scientific method be overthrown and gods and spirits inhabit all the “gaps.” Here we meet the atheist’s bugbear. Despite that almost no creationists attack the scientific method per se, answering Matt’s question isn’t so tidy for the Christian, who, simply on the basis of biblical revelation, must forever eschew presupposing the universe is a closed system.

Kurtis Smith  Tuesday, May 22, 2007 11:22 am
Consider also that, despite their claims to the contrary, the atheists and scientists on one accord with Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, et. al. don’t limit their vehement assertions to things empirically proven. That’s Wilson’s point. Neither do they admit any question about anything whatsoever for which science does not provide the single, authoritative means of determining the only valid – albeit perhaps temporarily flawed – answer. This includes morality, and of course, on this score, these people are either idiots or intellectually dishonest. You choose.



Most important to their credenda-agenda, they exceed Matt by claiming science proves God doesn’t exist; therefore, no religious person or group deserves any say in government policy debates (unless they agree with the atheists, of course). In sum, they want to rule with the all the mysterious moral authority of pagan priests. Hence, the real bone of contention with them is never really operational science or origins but their secular holy trinity of power, prestige, and profit.



From a Christian perspective where such things still matter, it seems humility and honesty would serve science better than the vast array of just-so stories offered by evolutionists. Saying when appropriate, “We just don’t know for sure, and we’ll probably never know” would be a welcome addition to their rhetorical repertoire in the debate over origins. But priests can’t say that. Even when they don’t know, priests must protect their aura by pretending that they do.

Matt Weber  Tuesday, May 22, 2007 1:00 pm
It is one thing to seek to explain creation in naturalistic terms. But it is another thing altogether to make the a priori philosophical presupposition that the mechanism of creation must have been naturalistic.



If you mean that looking for the natural mechanisms does not necessarily mean that you must deny supernatural involvement, then I agree, but I didn't think I said otherwise. I say that since science can only observe the natural world, it isn't outlandish or antagonistic to use it to look for natural explanations to things thought of as miraculous. And if the explanations contradict particular religious dogmas, that doesn't mean those areas should be off limits to scientific investigation.



Kurtis, I'm not trying to paint anyone as attempting to overthrow the scientific method. I'm not a materialist or an atheist, and have no fuzzy thoughts about science leading us into a new age of golden enlightenment if we could just get rid of the crazy fundies. If various atheists do have such preconceptions, that's their problem, not mine. Science is a tool for the gaining of knowledge, and it doesn't fit all situations. The situations it does fit have to do with the natural world. The origin of the universe or biodiversity are both aspects of this world, and science can comment on them without attacking God or something. Scientific explanations will categorically never include God. God is outside the domain of science, and so the only explanatory power it has is naturalistic.
Gianni  Tuesday, May 22, 2007 7:18 pm
Matt, you wrote:

"Gianni, exactly how should a scientist approach the question of the origins of the cosmos if not by way of a naturalistic explanation?"

If the scientist you have in mind is a human being, my best guess is that he should approach that question by way of faith in God's Word.


"Do we all agree that science is only useful for the natural realm, and things that can be tested empirically? If so, then what possible explanation could science arrive at for something like the creation of the universe rather than a natural one?"

If a guy claims, indeed insists, that he speaks and understands only English, that doesn't mean we should look with awe at his latest poem in Polish. If another guy insists, and indeed can prove beyond any doubt that he wasn't in the bank at the time of the robbery, that doesn't mean the police has found the best witness to identify the thieves. And if yet another guy has VERY carefully watched an old lady cross the street, that doesn't mean he is extraordinarily qualified to tell us exactly where the old lady was standing 50 years ago.
Gianni  Tuesday, May 22, 2007 7:18 pm
"Science is never going to include God specifically, because God is outside the realm of what science can comment on."

Human beings have a moral duty to believe their Creator and to "include God" in all they comment on. And God is outside nothing. And Eve's first scientific quest was kind of a letdown precisely because she defined "science" in the way you propose. Sometimes people paint themselves in a corner. Sometimes they want to paint themselves in a corner so their unbelief sounds legitimate. People do all kinds of crazy things in order to appear like respectable covenant breakers.


"Given this, what should scientists do about the origin of species? Just say 'God did it' and go eat a sandwich?"

More or less, yeah. A beer may help. Then back to work, there's plenty of other things to do. Likewise natural theologians should stop wondering whether God exists, and archaeologists should abandon all hopes to find Jesus' ossuary.
Gianni  Tuesday, May 22, 2007 7:18 pm
"Science can't tell you if God created the universe."

Provided they aren't mute, scientists can and should. Some do, I hear. So science can't tell if God created the universe? Then it's about time scientists should tell her the truth. She's a grown up, isn't she?


"[Science] can tell you by what mechanism the universe came into existence, i.e. the natural processes.

Do you mean that, by considering her own growth rate marked with a pencil on the wall, a 5-year girl can figure out where babies come from, and how tall she was 15 years ago?


Why shouldn't scientists look for these, even if they contradict a particular reading of Genesis?"

Because scientists have a moral duty to believe the word of their Creator. No natural process, correctly interpreted, can ever contradict the particular reading of Genesis you have in mind. Misinterpreted processes, yes. But why should scientists misinterpret natural processes?
Jason  Wednesday, May 23, 2007 8:16 am
Matt

If you're asking in what way can science comment on the origins of all things the simple answer is that it cannot.

To look at scientific statements: If we say that water boils at 200 degrees celsius at normal sea level atmospheric conditions we have made a scientific statement because we can go away and test it and find that it is false.

If we say that 14 billion years ago the universe popped into existence from a singularity that seems to have appeared out of nothing are we making a scientific statement?

Did we observe it?

No.

Can we repeat it?

No.

Can we falsify it?

No.

Therefore it's not scientific.

There are additional arguments against the big bang as it is commonly presented found in Williams/Hartnett's book Dismantling the Big Bang.
Jason  Wednesday, May 23, 2007 8:17 am
Likewise the age of the Earth is not an observable phenomena. Radiometric dating requires a belief that decay rates are constant, that the amount of daughter material was known, and that there was no contamination during the samples time in situ.

When applied to rocks of known age the techniques give false dates. For example in 1992 samples from the Mt St Helens eruption were tested. They dated at about half a million years and up despite being ten years old. Old earth advocates claimed that there was excess argon in the samples and they were right. Of course we can't tell which argon comes from radioactive decay and that which was dissolved in the rock to start with.

Meanwhile samples taken from coal and even diamonds have shown measurable levels of Carbon 14 which has a half life of about 7000 years. To register C14 the samples would have to be less than 50-100 thousand years old, despite coming from rocks supposedly millions or even billions of years old.

Science deals with the observable, repeatable present. History deals with the unrepeatable past. In the Bible we find a history book compiled by authors who were incredibly careful in their work. Doesn't it make sense to trust them?
RFB  Wednesday, May 23, 2007 9:59 am
Gianni, I love ya man! "More or less, yeah. A beer may help. Then back to work, there's plenty of other things to do." Priceless!!!
You beat me to it. They absolutely have a duty to believe what God has said, and so in their disobedience, they yammer about proof. Like He said, there are people that will not believe even if SOMEONE returns from the dead. Bottom line:"They have preferred darkness to light because their deeds were evil."
Matt Weber  Wednesday, May 23, 2007 1:50 pm
If someone postulates that a cosmic event that happened long ago resulted in low level ambient background radiation, then yes you can test for that. And when you not only find such radiation, but in the exact amount expected, it's not insensible at all to believe the original link. And if you were to say that a certain species has an evolutionary link with another one, and thereby should possess similar traits or have vestigial parts, then you find that this is the case, then again it isn't insensible to believe this.



Now if you have a religious dogma saying otherwise, then you might not believe it. But all religious dogma is the result of man's interpretation of something considered infallible, like the Bible. Therefore, it can be wrong. So why hold to dogma so strictly in the face of overwhelming scientific opposition. Evolution, for instance, is not just a majority position in biology; it's a totally dominant one. Are they all lying frauds? Or are they all just slaves to inadequate assumptions. If that, though, who says they're the ones with the inadequate assumptions? I have to believe that anyone who can read a pretty small chapter in a pretty large book and then claim they know the how of the universe's formation is kidding themselves.
RFB  Wednesday, May 23, 2007 2:29 pm
If the origin of life and the universe is consistent with the "majority position in biology", then they have absolutely no reason to believe that their observations have any veracity. Their minds (and lives) are randomly produced compositions of electrochemical reactions with no immutable standard to measure the accuracy of anything.
Beyond that, they lack any moral authority to tell anyone that they are wrong; their opinion is just todays chemical flux. But thankfully, In the beginning, God.
Mark F  Thursday, May 24, 2007 2:57 am
it's not insensible at all to believe...

What is at stake here is not whether someone has 'sensible' beliefs (btw, what are your opinions of people who hold to what are commonly called 'conspiracy theories') but whether they are correct. A man who believes himself wronged in some situation may be entirely sensible in his indignation but his sensibility does not impute correctness.

Jason  Thursday, May 24, 2007 7:02 am
Matt, in 1926 Sir Arthur Eddington argued that because everything is bathed in starlight the universe would have a black body temperature of about 3 Kelvins. George Gamov predicted that the afterglow of the big bang would be between 5 and 50 Kelvins.
The CMBR was measured at 2.7K which fit in with Eddington's predictions but the 'big bangers' just adjusted their "predictions" to suit.

Just like evolution, if you're going to change your predictions to fit the available evidence then you're never going to be wrong.
Jason  Thursday, May 24, 2007 7:09 am
Kerkut's statement that the general theory of evolution is the idea that all living forms are descended from a single form that in turn arose from non-living matter places the responsibility on the evolutionist to actually present evidence that this has taken place.

All available evidence suggests abiogenesis is impossible, Haldane's dilemma, the calculation that in any population of reasonable size it would take 300 generations for any beneficial mutation to eliminate all non-mutation carrying members eliminates the possiblity of mutations being the driving force of evolution that they are widely touted as being.

Creationists meanwhile believe in a limited type of common ancestry, that God created families of animals (dog, cat, horse, oxen, etc) and that He included most of the genetic potential neccessary for all the variants we see today in their populations.

The prediction from this is not one bush, as the evolutionists have, but a forest of little trees, each descended from one Baramin (created kind). Strangely enough the available evidence supports this position.
Gianni  Thursday, May 24, 2007 8:28 am
Matt, you wrote (Part 1 of 5):

If someone postulates that a cosmic event that happened long ago resulted in low level ambient background radiation, then yes you can test for that. And when you not only find such radiation, but in the exact amount expected, it's not insensible at all to believe the original link. And if you were to say that a certain species has an evolutionary link with another one, and thereby should possess similar traits or have vestigial parts, then you find that this is the case, then again it isn't insensible to believe this.

Sure. And if you wake up in the morning postulating that perhaps it rained last night, and you go and see from the window that the street is wet, it's not insensible at all to believe “the original link”.
Gianni  Thursday, May 24, 2007 8:29 am
(To Matt, Part 2 of 5)


Also, if you wake up postulating that a street washer operated last night, that also works. A gang of sleepless kids played with water guns. A crazy gardener roamed the streets. The river overflowed its banks. The city water tank collapsed. A whale was captured and dragged along the streets. Aliens sprayed the earth with a water-looking poison. It's fun, you know, in a kind of childish way, although grown-ups may get bored after a while. Too bad for them. But now imagine what would happen if the Big Bang Believers got serious and started claiming that their take in this game amounts to actual proof and to actual scientific evidence. They produce TV documentaries, write books, get all technical, seek government funding, start teaching this stuff in the schools, you know, that kind of thing.
Gianni  Thursday, May 24, 2007 8:29 am
(To Matt, Part 3 of 5)


And imagine some Christians were so foolish as to remain profoundly impressed by -- I don't know, by the sheer noise of the fad, by the size of the crowd going along with this, by the apparent straight-faced, wide-eyed earnestness of the personalities involved, by the buzz, by the media coverage, or worse, by the actual argument. Imagine these Christians seriously thought they need to readjust their commitments, their priorities, and their interpretation of the Word of God in order to make room for this children's game. It would be a nightmare -- everybody would get dead serious about something so innocently and childishly funny.
Gianni  Thursday, May 24, 2007 8:29 am
(To Matt, Part 4 of 5)


Of course that can’t happen -- not in this Enlightened Age. Thank God we all know that affirming the consequent is an elementary, obvious, juvenile, often amusing logical fallacy. It’s the stuff jokes are often made of. Thank God no one here would seriousl . . .


Now if you have a religious dogma saying otherwise, then you might not believe it. But all religious dogma is the result of man's interpretation of something considered infallible, like the Bible. Therefore, it can be wrong. So why hold to dogma so strictly in the face of overwhelming scientific opposition.


On second thought, Douglas Wilson did warn us that if this is the Enlightened Age, we need to check the batteries. Overwhelming scientific opposition, eh? Some people, it turns out, wouldn’t recognize overwhelming scientific opposition if it crawled out of the beach on sixteen vestigial organs while a low level ambient radiation hummed in the background.
Gianni  Thursday, May 24, 2007 8:32 am
(To Matt, Part 5 of 5)


Evolution, for instance, is not just a majority position in biology; it's a totally dominant one. Are they all lying frauds?


Matt, since you are so very easily impressed by the size of crowds, I recommend skipping visiting Mecca in the Month of Hajj. Attend a Billy Graham Crusade instead.


Or are they all just slaves to inadequate assumptions. If that, though, who says they're the ones with the inadequate assumptions?


God does, but His own inadequate assumptions have kind of marred His reputation in some circles.


I have to believe that anyone who can read a pretty small chapter in a pretty large book and then claim they know the how of the universe's formation is kidding themselves.


Well, at least you think it’s pretty. That’s a start.




P.S. Matt's words are always in bold in all my five posts.
Rob Steele  Thursday, May 24, 2007 4:29 pm
The bullets fly right through Hitchens but he hardly notices and just zombie marches on. Maybe you should try a shotgun or a sword. How about a barrel of napalm?
Gianni  Monday, June 04, 2007 2:37 am
Matt, I rest my case.