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Atheism and Apologetics - Moist Robots
Written by Douglas Wilson   
Tuesday, 20 March 2012 06:26

There are two levels at least to the debates over the freedom of the will. The first has to do with the intersection of time and eternity, and is a problem that theists have to deal with. Arminians believe that God knows the future exhaustively, and Calvinists believe that He knows this future exhaustively because He foreordains all things. The question concerns how can a future event that will happen necessarily be freely chosen by its agents? That is one question. This is the macro-theology of the question. And Sam Harris is not talking about that.

But there is also a psychological aspect to it. Calvinists and Arminians differ on questions of time and eternity, sure enough, but they also differ when it comes to defining the will, and the freedom of it. Calvinists define free will as the uncontrained ability to choose in accordance with one's strongest desire. Arminians define free will as the unconstrained ability to choose contrary to one's strongest desire. This debate does not have to do with God's foreknowledge or foreordination (at least not directly), but rather with what free choice actually means on the invidual level.

This is necessary background to Sam Harris's second chapter, in which he (in his book on free will) shows himself to be blithely unware of the history of this debate. Jonathan Edwards laid this baby to rest in the 1700s, in his magisterial work The Freedom of the Will, and comes now Harris to use neureological experiments to show that the Arminians are wrong. But we already knew that.

The notion of free will that Harris is arguing against  is the idea that at time T1 a conscious being can flip a switch in his consciousness in order to settle whether to go left or right. All the antecedent conditions of T1 do not settle the events of T2, but rather a raw choice made by the choosing agent.

But Harris points to certain neurological experiments that show that the brain has actually settled what is going to be done seconds before the actor is even aware of what he is going to do.

"These findings are difficult to reconcile with the sense that we are the conscious authors of our actions. One fact now seems indisputable. Some moments before you are aware of what you will do next -- a time at which you subjectively appear to have complete freedom to behave however you please -- your brain has already determined what you will do. You then become conscious of this 'decision' and believe that you are in the process of making it" (p. 9).

But talk about yesterday's newspaper. Edwards demonstrated that our conscious choices proceed from our heart, our nature, and he did this centuries ago. A free man, according to Calvinists, is a man who is not externally constrained, and has the ability to do what he wants. And what he wants is determined by far more than what can be settled by flipping coins in the control room. This is why Calvinsts prefer to talk about free agents, or free men. They do not like to talk about an autonomous free "will," floating around out there, detached from the heart. When you talk that way too much, someone like Harris might make an elementary mistake.

We make our choices out of the reservoir of our nature. Jesus taught this (Matt. 12:35). The mechanism of the will does not have the ability to alter the contents of our hearts. The nature of the tree determines the nature of the fruit produced.

If we could choose contrary to our strongest desire, we would not call that freedom, but rather insanity. "Why did you throw the vase against the wall?" "Because what I really wanted to do was to go for a walk."

The act of willing is a gift God gave us for identifying what we want to do. It was never intended to create what we want to do.

 

 



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Blake Law  Tuesday, March 20, 2012 7:27 am
I have also heard a free man described as someone who is "able to do what is ultimately in his own best interest". No one would say an addict is free in following his strongest desires for crack. I think this is a helpful definition because it highlights the bondage of sin in deceiving men to act against their own best interest (eternal death) and the freedom that comes from faith in Christ. Christ truly frees men to do everything for their own greatest self-interest, namely giving glory to God and enjoying Him forever.
Michael Buschbacher  Tuesday, March 20, 2012 8:53 am
Pastor Wilson,

This post reminded me of a paper by the philosopher Harry Frankfurt (the same guy who wrote On Bullshit) called The Freedom of the Will and the Concept of a Person. Here's my approximation of his argument: Isn't it possible to act against our strongest (or perhaps strongest felt) desire? For example, a man charging into battle may be acting against a very strong feeling/desire of self preservation. In this way, doesn't the will occupy a second-order of sorts, making choices among first-order desires? Another example that Blake mentioned (the crack addict) brings up a similar question: what about those addicts who choose not to give in despite the nearly overwhelming first-order desire for the drug.

It seems to me that when I make a choice to do something, I could have chosen otherwise. Holding people morally responsible for their actions seems to require this. Is the answer to this that when our doing something is accompanied by the assent of our will it is culpable regardless of whether there were other options?

Put another way, does my Calvinism require me to believe in soft-determinism?
Anthony Sacramone  - Notes From Underground  Tuesday, March 20, 2012 8:54 am
"If we could choose contrary to our strongest desire, we would not call that freedom, but rather insanity. 'Why did you throw the vase against the wall?' 'Because what I really wanted to do was to go for a walk.'"

This reminds me of Dostoyevsky's Mouseman, who insists that acting against one's own best interest proves the inviolability of human freedom, that man cannot be played like a piano key, no matter what the determinists and reductionists argue. But is it freedom, or is it mere spite, which is just left of freedom and more a poke in the eye of the one whose power you truly do have an "interest" in resisting?
Rob Steele  Tuesday, March 20, 2012 9:38 am
Abusing Rom. 3:4: Let God be free and every man determined.

This all reminds me of Frost locking himself into the insanity room at the end of That Hideous Strength.
Matt Weber  Tuesday, March 20, 2012 9:58 am
You're still snarking pointlessly. As far as I can tell, Harris would agree entirely with you that your choices are determined by factors you have no control over, be they material forces or desires. Redefining free will to your definition followed by 'duh' is no response, as Harris is obviously dealing with the popular conception of free will, that of being able to make any choice at any time. Maybe Harris just annoys you, but I fail to see the point.

Now, if you always choose in accordance with your strongest desire, and you have no direct control over what your strongest desire is, then you aren't really making choices but following a program of sorts. It just appears that you're making choices. Some philosophers (I think Dennett) believe this, but I consider it an obvious fact of human experience that we do deliberate and make choices, and that we could have--not just in theory but in actuality--chosen something different than we did. So I'd say the Arminians are closer to the truth on this one.
Matthew N. Petersen  Tuesday, March 20, 2012 10:20 am
I find this thread odd in light of your Master's Thesis, and your statement in Lordship a few years back that you still agree with everything in it. Have you changed your views since then?
jay niemeyer  Tuesday, March 20, 2012 11:16 am
"We make our choices out of the reservoir of our nature. Jesus taught this (Matt. 12:35). The mechanism of the will does not have the ability to alter the contents of our hearts. The nature of the tree determines the nature of the fruit produced."

Perfectly said!

One question please, Pastor Wilson.
Does the conscious awareness of this concept itself provide for anything in this regard?
In other words: I know that one only chooses according to the strongest motive. But since I understand THAT concept, I might now conceive a greater freedom to choose other than what I WOULD have chosen before I grasped this.
In other other words: Does the knowledge of the bondage of the will itself make any difference at all?
jay niemeyer  Tuesday, March 20, 2012 4:30 pm
Another aspect...
Conscious awareness and understanding of the will, it's freedom, it's bondage, etc. may become a "part of the reservoir of our nature". Does it not thus have an impact in some way on the state of affairs concerning the will itself?
Bill Banting  Tuesday, March 20, 2012 3:03 pm
I find myself agreeing with both Harris and yourself.

The only bit I find not to hold any water whatsoever is the idea that a just and loving God predestines conscious souls to eternal torment.

It would be more honest to use other adjectives (or coin new ones), since their use in this context bears no relationship to any commonly understood meaning of the terms, but boils down instead to a coldly tautological "God does what God does".
jay niemeyer  Tuesday, March 20, 2012 4:18 pm
"The only bit I find not to hold any water whatsoever is the idea that a just and loving God predestines conscious souls to eternal torment."

Forgive me for re-posting my own previous point.

"Any sin against a being of infinite Holiness, Honor, Goodness, Righteousness, etc. becomes more heinous in proportion to the obligation to honor, love, and obey Him.
Willful sin thus becomes worthy of proportional punishment."





Bill Banting  Tuesday, March 20, 2012 3:26 pm
By the way, are Calvinists sure that every child who dies in the womb or in childbirth is a member of the elect?

If not, doesn't it strike you as perhaps a little less than just and loving to create a being whose only conscious experience is an eternity of torment?

But it seems difficult to argue otherwise, given the Calvinist presuppositions, without special pleading. Even if you could build a case that God elects every child up to a certain age, wouldn't it be better then to encourage abortion since it guarantees a soul's election? Which would any of us prefer -- a human life followed by eternity in hell, or to dispense with the life and head straight to heaven? It would be a strange state of affairs in which the abortion doctor is manifestly more loving towards those souls than God Himself.
jay niemeyer  Tuesday, March 20, 2012 4:23 pm
Bill, please read Jonathan Edwards.
"Freedom of the Will" as per Pastor Wilson's point above is an excellent start!

And of course, his amazingly insightful sermon called "The Justice of God in the Damnation of Sinners" is essential.

Then, I'd say just about any of his works on Grace, Original Sin, and Election should help considerably.
Bill Banting  - re:  Wednesday, March 21, 2012 5:15 am
jay niemeyer wrote:
Any sin against a being of infinite Holiness, Honor, Goodness, Righteousness, etc. becomes more heinous in proportion to the obligation to honor, love, and obey Him.
Willful sin thus becomes worthy of proportional punishment.


Yes, Edwards takes an informal human legal principle ... and extrapolates to infinity. No danger in that, I'm sure. :)

The problem, though, isn't that hell is too severe a punishment for our sins. The problem is that we can't justly be held eternally responsible for actions that God preordains and causes to happen. Harris/Wilson compatibilist free will notwithstanding.

I won't harp on about this anymore, since I know it's Calvinism 101. But as you can see, I'm not convinced. :)

jay niemeyer  Wednesday, March 21, 2012 1:29 pm
Quote:
Edwards takes an informal human legal principle ... and extrapolates to infinity.


Why are you asserting that it is merely an 'informal human legal principal'?

Also, upon what basis are these principals founded in the first place?

How is the level of blameworthiness, excuse, or praise justly ascertained according to your world view?

Lastly, why in the world do you keep harping that, according to Calvinism, God causes literally everything to happen? Which respected Calvinist thinker ever holds this to be the case?
Or are you just extrapolating from a simplistic (and thus ignorant) caricature of this philosophy?
:wink:




Rob Steele  Wednesday, March 21, 2012 6:04 am
Quote:
The problem is that we can't justly be held eternally responsible for actions that God preordains and causes to happen.

Is Tolkien unjust to condemn Saruman? Doesn't Saruman deserve his fate even though his creator designed him for it and it for him?
Charles Long  - re:  Wednesday, March 21, 2012 8:06 am
jay niemeyer wrote:
In other other words: Does the knowledge of the bondage of the will itself make any difference at all?

Jay, does Paul's passage in Romans 7:15-24 address your question? Here he seems to be saying, "Yeah, I see very clearly what's going on, but I can't do a doggone thing about it." Pardon me if I've misunderstood your question.
jay niemeyer  Wednesday, March 21, 2012 6:17 pm
Not exactly, Charles.
This is difficult for me to communicate, but I'll try another tack.

Suppose we are studying the freedom of the will, and come to understand that the will necessarily chooses according to the strongest actual motive. (As per the Law of Causation)

Well, true and good.

But now, we are fully aware of THAT reality.
I will call this understanding "will awareness" or "W.A."

Following this, another event which calls for a conscious choice approaches. Now "Will Awareness" itself is in the mix of whatever goes on in the process of choosing.

So when we would normally have just chosen A out of A,B,C,D, etc. without W.A. the new understanding itself makes one far more aware of what the strongest motive is in the conscious self - and one realizes that one may truly now choose otherwise than what would have been chosen prior to W.A.

This cannot nullify the analytical truth of W.A. - but does it not make some difference?

:confused:



Charles Long  - re:  Wednesday, March 21, 2012 8:09 am
Bill Banting wrote:

The only bit I find not to hold any water whatsoever is the idea that a just and loving God predestines conscious souls to eternal torment.


Bill, do you find this idea to be unjust, or rather to be unloving? Or do you find it to be both unjust and unloving? Please elaborate, including how you see each virtue being violated. In other words, "It is unjust because..." TIA.
katecho  Wednesday, March 21, 2012 8:16 am
Bill Banting wrote:
The problem is that we can't justly be held eternally responsible for actions that God preordains and causes to happen.


This view is still common among Christians who reject God's ordination of the future. It is the notion that ordination of future events requires exclusive and direct causation of those events, as if no other agency can be involved when God's ordination is involved. I.e. "the only way for God to guarantee that X is going to happen in the future is if God performs X Himself when the time comes". I regard this as a low view of God's omniscience. Certainly God knows certain future events because He is going to perform them Himself at the time, but He also knows (and permits) future events that involve our free agency and actions. We see examples across this spectrum all over Scripture, and all of it is preordained by God (else it wouldn't have come to be). History is a book that has already been written in God's eyes, and it's a history documenting all sorts of activities of free creatures behaving from their own motivations.

Bill Banting also wrote:
By the way, are Calvinists sure that every child who dies in the womb or in childbirth is a member of the elect?

There may be some Calvinists who hold that God wouldn't permit a baby to die unless that baby was already elect to glory. Unbelievers pick up on this notion and rightly question the opposition to things like abortion or infanticide if it guarantees the eternal glory of the baby. They wonder why any loving parent would risk allowing their babies to grow up and make the wrong eternal decision. I think the unbeliever has a good point. Yet the pattern of Scripture implies that God regards children covenantally, and representationally through their parents, Adam, etc. Doug has recently covered God's covenantal inclusiveness in 1Cor 7:14 on this blog, but there are still children who are conceived apart from any covenantal connection to Christ. This is why the vast majority of Calvinists oppose abortion and affirm evangelism.

Finally, Bill Banting wrote:
If not, doesn't it strike you as perhaps a little less than just and loving to create a being whose only conscious experience is an eternity of torment?

This is the heart of the classic objection that Paul anticipates in Romans 9. Eternity is a very very long time, and whether it is preceded by 80 years of consciousness or 1 day of consciousness doesn't have much bearing on the nature of the objection. "If God knows the exact ones who will see eternal darkness, why does He bother to create them at all? Why not just leave them out and only create the ones that He knows will be happy to receive His mercy?" This is the basic challenge about whether God has a right to create a vessel whose end is destruction. Why does God insist on writing stories that include wicked or minor characters? The answer to this question is one of the more clear doctrines of Scripture, so it seems odd that Bill would choose this line. Some will never accept that God could have a purpose for sin, or for the lost, or for common bit characters, but Scripture doesn't seem to back down on this point.
Bill Banting  - re:  Wednesday, March 21, 2012 3:43 pm
jay niemeyer wrote:
Why are you asserting that it is merely an 'informal human legal principal'?

Also, upon what basis are these principals founded in the first place?


I just mean there is no mathematical formula for determining my sentence (as, say, a thief) commensurate with my victim. Taking a general principle and extrapolating to infinity is what I'd consider grasping at straws.

(Not to mention such formal human legal principles as maximum sentences and a prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment.)

Quote:
Lastly, why in the world do you keep harping that, according to Calvinism, God causes literally everything to happen?


Maybe this is where I'm missing it. I suspect you mean (correct me if not) that God having preordained everything is not the same as God having caused everything. Seems like splitting hairs to me though.

Rob Steele wrote:
Is Tolkien unjust to condemn Saruman? Doesn't Saruman deserve his fate even though his creator designed him for it and it for him?


This line of argument I don't understand. Saruman is a fictional character, and thus cannot be subject to conscious torment. He also has no free will of any kind, for that matter. I'd argue that the God of reformed theology causes our actions in the same way that Tolkien caused -- and therefore is responsible for -- Saruman's "actions" by means of authorship.

Moreover, were Tolkien to "write free will" into the trilogy, it would not somehow transfer this responsibility to his characters in any meaningful way.

Charles Long wrote:
Bill, do you find this idea to be unjust, or rather to be unloving?


Both! And the question about unborn children just puts it into starker light, in my mind. For those who are preordained to an eternity of conscious torment, the scheme is manifestly unjust and unloving. I can't imagine anything more so.

Maybe it's just and loving in some "greater scheme" kind of way, but not much good it will do for the chosen non-elect!

katecho wrote:
This is the basic challenge about whether God has a right to create a vessel whose end is destruction. Why does God insist on writing stories that include wicked or minor characters? The answer to this question is one of the more clear doctrines of Scripture, so it seems odd that Bill would choose this line. Some will never accept that God could have a purpose for sin, or for the lost, or for common bit characters, but Scripture doesn't seem to back down on this point.


Of course God has a "right" to do anything He wants, but some of these apparent things cannot be honestly described as just and loving without doing great violence to the meaning of the words. It really seems downright Isaiah 5:20 to me ...

jay niemeyer  Thursday, March 22, 2012 6:33 am
Bill,
You never said how it is that YOU think the heinousness of a crime is determined.

Now, we all know that some actions are morally worse than others, right?
We also know that the badness is, in part, ascertained according to the nature of the entity sinned against.

We could ask this from another angle: how worthy is God?
All reasonable persons consider 'crimes against humanity' to be extraordinarily heinous.
Why? How is this determined?
In part, because humanity has value.
Crimes against a pile of dead leaves, for instance, are nonsensical notions because the dead leaf holds no real value.
But just how valuable is God?
How worthy is He of our honor, love, obedience, etc.?

Charles Long  - re: re:  Wednesday, March 21, 2012 5:31 pm
Charles Long wrote:
Bill, do you find this idea to be unjust, or rather to be unloving?


Bill Banting wrote:
Both! And the question about unborn children just puts it into starker light, in my mind. For those who are preordained to an eternity of conscious torment, the scheme is manifestly unjust and unloving. I can't imagine anything more so.


Okay, both. But how exactly? "Manifestly" doesn't really answer the question unless everyone in the room already agrees, which is obviously not the case. What I'm asking is for you do explain where exactly the injustice resides, and where the love is lacking. I'm asking for you to explain, for example, "X is unjust because Y should have happened instead," or, "God's lack of love is demonstrated in X action, and Y action should have happened instead."
jay niemeyer  Thursday, March 22, 2012 6:59 pm
Charles, you ask very good questions here.

Another crucial aspect of Bill's erroneous critique of Calvinism is that he pretty much equates the word 'ordination' to mean 'primary causation'.

So, it seems to me from having read other posts that we could read his quote above in this manner:
"For those whom God directly causes to be evil - and then provides that they should all recieve eternity of conscious torment - the scheme is manifestly unjust and unloving."

And, allowing for his premise, he would be manifestly correct.

But is the premise valid?
Not if he's read the Scriptures, esp.Paul, or Augustine, Calvin, Edwards, Spurgeon, Wilson, etc.
katecho  Wednesday, March 21, 2012 5:55 pm
Bill Banting wrote:
Of course God has a "right" to do anything He wants, but some of these apparent things cannot be honestly described as just and loving without doing great violence to the meaning of the words. It really seems downright Isaiah 5:20 to me ...

Some people don't think that God's destruction of the world by a flood was very "loving" either. Presumably the world at that time contained a lot of adorable little babies too, even unborn ones. Yet this is the God of Scripture. We either submit to His lesson about what justice and love looks like, or we cling to our own notion of what those terms should mean from our perspectives.

Whatever one's views against God's predestination, there are many severe and sobering examples of God's direct justice which would have included cute little babies. The text isn't going to change on this point. I suggest that Bill should come to terms with this fact before resorting to sentimental arguments against predestination. How does Bill reconcile the death of infants at Sodom and Gomorrah by God's direct judgment without resorting to his bottle of Febreze or going Isaiah 5:20 on us?

It's one thing to concede that God has a right to dispose of His creation as He sees fit (and I'm glad Bill confesses this), but how often do we find ourselves still sitting in judgment of Him over how He does it?
Matthew N. Petersen  Wednesday, March 21, 2012 8:19 pm
My thoughts:

If man is not free, God is not free, because God is man. But God is man, and God is always free, therefore man is free.
katecho  Thursday, March 22, 2012 7:13 pm
Does this thought work if you replace the word "free" with the word "sovereign", or with the word "omniscient", or with "creator"? 8)
Matthew N. Petersen  Saturday, March 24, 2012 3:08 pm
I suppose I should reply: "Always free" is not a divine property, but is more accurately, a denial of being bound. The Word is never bound.

The Word is always our sovereign, even when he was an infant he was king. "Hic jacet in præsepio, Alleluia. Qui regnat sine termino. Alleluia."

Likewise, the Word is the creator, and Jesus Christ is the Word. The Word did not create in His human nature, but this man Jesus Christ created the World.

"Omniscient" is a divine energy, or a property of the Divine Essence. Though there is an actual communication of properties, so the human Jesus is (now) actually omniscient, nevertheless, God was, for a time, without losing his omniscience, not omniscient.
Bill Banting  - re: re: re:  Thursday, March 22, 2012 6:38 am
Charles Long wrote:
Okay, both. But how exactly? "Manifestly" doesn't really answer the question unless everyone in the room already agrees, which is obviously not the case. What I'm asking is for you do explain where exactly the injustice resides, and where the love is lacking. I'm asking for you to explain, for example, "X is unjust because Y should have happened instead," or, "God's lack of love is demonstrated in X action, and Y action should have happened instead."


katecho wrote:
(...) Yet this is the God of Scripture. We either submit to His lesson about what justice and love looks like, or we cling to our own notion of what those terms should mean from our perspectives.

Whatever one's views against God's predestination, there are many severe and sobering examples of God's direct justice which would have included cute little babies. The text isn't going to change on this point. I suggest that Bill should come to terms with this fact before resorting to sentimental arguments against predestination.


I concede that my arguments are essentially sentimental. Admittedly, I don't have a standard other than my moral intuition (and the general thrust of Biblical morality as I was always taught it) for judging particular actions "manifestly unjust and unloving".

You may choose to trade your moral intuition for an "objective standard" of what constitutes just and loving -- and in this case you must, as I can't imagine anything less intuitively moral than planning (and carrying out) the inescapable eternal conscious torment of a person.

But the price you pay for your objective standard is that words like "just" and "love" lose all meaning. God's use of the terms bears no relationship to human use, and in some cases is diametrically opposed. What could God possibly do that isn't just and loving by this objective standard? Nothing, of course. The words are now empty of all meaning except to remind us that God does what God does. No more, and no less.
jay niemeyer  Thursday, March 22, 2012 7:16 pm
Bill,
You do not believe that it is mere moral intuition that serves as your only guide to judge between rightness and wrongness. You might waver about a hard objective standard, but you know that, if God exists - and that He has revealed such truths via propositional truth - then reasonable and communicable standards exist.

So I will ask again...

"We all know that some actions are morally worse than others, right?
We also know that the badness is, in part, ascertained according to the nature of the entity sinned against."
(Bill, this is reasonably and communicably true, right?)

"So, how worthy/valuable is God?"

"All reasonable persons consider 'crimes against humanity' to be extraordinarily heinous.
Why? How is this determined?
In part, because humanity has extremely high value.
A list of crimes against a pile of dead leaves, for instance, would be nonsensical and meaningless notions because the dead leaf holds no real value.

But just how valuable is God?
How worthy is He of our honor, love, obedience, etc.?"

Ok, I altered it a bit for clarity.
Bill Banting  - re:  Friday, March 23, 2012 2:49 pm
Hi Jay,

jay niemeyer wrote:
if God exists - and that He has revealed such truths via propositional truth - then reasonable and communicable standards exist.

Agreed. The problem is when I end up at conclusions that are nonsensical, as I believe is the case with Reformed views on hell and predestination, then I must reexamine my assumptions about these propositional truths.

I appreciate Reformed thinkers' commitment to rigor and clear thought. But I get the feeling that they have historically invested so much energy into their tidy systematic theologies -- the ones that attempt to digest and harmonize every verse in the Bible, as admirable a goal as that may be -- that they are unwilling to reexamine basic assumptions.

It's like they have spent many generations solving the world's most difficult Rubik's Cube. Certain other denominations (the one I grew up with, for instance) were content to solve just one side of the cube and ignore the rest. But not the Reformers. They have all the sides perfectly aligned except for that ONE yellow spot sticking out like a sore thumb where a red spot should be.

Instead of tinkering -- because they're afraid of losing generations of apparently fruitful progress -- they instead try to convince everyone else that the yellow spot isn't yellow at all, and that the puzzle has actually been solved. Since the alternative seems even less palatable, they come up with surprisingly ingenious arguments to convince others that the yellow spot is in fact red.

Quote:
We all know that some actions are morally worse than others, right?
We also know that the badness is, in part, ascertained according to the nature of the entity sinned against.
(Bill, this is reasonably and communicably true, right?)

So, how worthy/valuable is God?


This argument is a decent example of what I meant above. Reformed Christians take seriously (as they should) the Bible verses that seem to talk about hell and predestination. And they have fitted these verses into the grand systematic theology, such that it's not possible to change their understanding of these verses without risking unknown and possibly significant knock-on effects in other areas of their theology.

So, rather than risking the whole edifice by reexamining these problematic doctrines, Reformers have chosen to double down by buttressing their doctrines with rhetorically impressive but ultimately weak arguments.

I consider an argument "weak" in this sense if it is used only to bolster, never to establish a doctrine. In this case, I've never heard of any theistic philosopher of any stripe argue for a predestined hell based on arguments like these as opposed to Biblical evidence. This is so because the doctrines are nonsensical; there are no good arguments for a predestined hell outside of the Biblical evidence -- and of course, even the Biblical evidence is controversial.

A strong argument, on the other hand, stands on its own. I'd consider some of the basic arguments for God's existence to be strong in this sense, for example.

Some might argue that Biblical evidence is all we should need. I won't argue. But once again, if my reading of the Bible leads me to conclude that 1+1=3, or that yellow is red, then I am going to take another look at my understanding of the Bible.

...

I see I've gone on for quite a few words now. I don't mean to steal the last word, but I think I am going to let this thread go, as I get the feeling we are talking past each other. I appreciate the engagement and will certainly continue to think about what's been said in reply to me.


Thanks,

Bill.