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Theology - N.T. Wrights and Wrongs
Written by Douglas Wilson   
Monday, 26 November 2012 08:05

In the previous post, I took N.T. Wright to task for trifling with the text of 1 Tim. 2:12, and for insulting our intelligence. A discussion broke out in the comments about whether I had been too cavalier and dismissive of Wright. So here's a little something about all that.

In the first place, I did not refer to him as Entie Wright. I think that should count for something. In the second place, as one commenter pointed out, I have on numerous occasions been appreciative of Wright's contributions and scholarship. I have read a number of his books, and have learned a bunch. I am not walking any of that back. I just yesterday after church recommended one of his books (Surprised by Hope) to a parishioner. But third, and this is the main point now (a point which every successful Bible teacher ought to take to heart), he is a bibilical expositor, not a rock star, and not a celebrity.

Every expositor is capable of error, obviously, but sometimes the error is of a kind that is followed immediately with a clap of thunder. When that kind of thing happens, and your children are frightened, you need to tell them that it is only the gods of exegesis laughing.
When someone of Wright's influence and stature starts telling us that blue is pink, when the apostle Paul plainly told us that pink is pink, nothing is gained by pretending that it wasn't a howler. Not only is nothing gained, a great deal is lost if we pretend it wasn't a howler. Here's how. Here's why.

When Bible teachers become celebrities, a certain kind of person just buys into whatever is said. Often this happens with good results because the celebrity guy often made his mark in the first place by contributing something useful. And Wright really is a scholar, has a fine mind, and is a dazzling lecturer. But when groupies get into the act, they accept whatever is said, whenever it is said. They have no smelting equipment, and so they head back home after the conference with their bags full of silver and dross together.

But if the dross is on one of the critical issues of the day, if the dross opens the way for numerous sexual heresies that are sure to follow, then it is time for us not only to reject the dross, but to make fun of those who are solemnly maintaining how glittery and silverlike it looks.

Let's come at this point from another direction. Debates over issues like women's ordination are not like solving an algebra problem. Before one side can prevail, they must first get their option on the table as a "reasonable option." Step one is "consistent Christians differ on issue x." Step two is the insistence on the new orthodoxy. When I laugh at the exegesis of 1 Tim. 2:12 offered up in journals like Serious Scholars Clown Car Review, I am not just indulging my own sense of humor. I am fighting the monstrosity at step one. I am anticipating the play that is being run on us. So should everybody else. This is not the first time this has happened, everybody.

Here's the deal. Back when the arrangement was made to allow for women priests, conservatives in the CoE went along with it because certain assurances had been offered them -- assurances that have now been (surprise!) pulled away. Here's how it went down.

As a logic problem, women priests means (eventually and obviously) women bishops. But this would only be the case if the whole church had come to the conviction that women must be ordained, and there was no controversy about it. You would obviously ordain women priests at the entry levels, and eventually some of them would be promoted. If you start commissioning women ensigns, eventually you will have women admirals. But that's only if everybody agrees.

The deal was that the conservatives were willing for this particular sin (and never forget that it is a sin) to occur elsewhere in the church. They were accustomed to that kind of thing (sin elsewhere) -- so long as they were allowed to refrain from participating in themselves. When women are priests, they can still be priests somewhere else. An evangelical parish can still say no to women priests. So could an Anglo Catholic parish. The same deal applies with homosexuals. But when women become bishops, those who object to this as a matter of conscience are being required to submit to it directly in their lives, and not just put up with its existence elsewhere. In the CoE, the liberal sin was lying, and the conservative sin was just one more chapter in that endless tome we like to read called Gullible's Travels.

So when serious scholars tell you that pink is blue, and you pull thoughtfully on your chin, and ask, pensively, whether or not, at the end of the day, there might be other readings that allow for a different take on this -- congratulations. You have already lost. And -- not incidentally -- your whole approach to life is the reason you lose so much.



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Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, November 26, 2012 8:47 am
The thing is, Arius, or Nestorius offer far greater howlers than Wright. And when I read Athanasius, or Basil, or Cyril, I find some mockery. But I also find argument. But here, I'm only finding mockery. I don't deny that sometimes that's acceptable, but if the post is entirely devoid of logos, it seems something's missing. Sure, include the pathetic and ethical appeals. But back them up with logos. Particularly, your claim that the Apostle plainly told us that pink is pink is, in this instance, just circular. Yes, I believe the KJV translates that verse correctly, and that, even if it doesn't, the Church has never ordained women. But Wright doesn't.

Also, surely Wright's track record merits that at the very least, we believe that he is being honest, and not accuse him of lying. He's wrong on this issue, but he isn't lying.
Matt Weber  Monday, November 26, 2012 8:54 am
I don't think so. If a question is asked, and it seems a reasonable one, then you can't just scoff. You must provide an answer. That doesn't mean that your answer will be popular or accepted, but your fun-making will simply be taken as evidence that the status quo is based on nothing more than reflexive adherence to tradition. If you can't or won't defend your traditions, then they will fall.

What actually is the argument against women being authority figures in the church? It can't be that the Bible says they shall not be, because the Bible is not a cosmic rule book and must comport with everyday experience.
Charles Long  - re:  Monday, November 26, 2012 10:00 am
Matthew N. Petersen wrote:
Yes, I believe the KJV translates that verse correctly, and that, even if it doesn't, the Church has never ordained women. But Wright doesn't.

Okay, so Wright proposes X, and you propose Y. Is Wright correct, or is Wright wrong? Are you even capable of making a propositional statement here?

Matthew N. Petersen wrote:
Particularly, your claim that the Apostle plainly told us that pink is pink is, in this instance, just circular.

But... you just made the same claim (see previous quote). Were you also arguing circularly, or not?

Matthew N. Petersen wrote:
...But here, I'm only finding mockery. I don't deny that sometimes that's acceptable, but if the post is entirely devoid of logos, it seems something's missing. Sure, include the pathetic and ethical appeals. But back them up with logos.

I still don't get how you're not able to identify the logos here. Wait, let me rephrase that -- I think you have identified the argument, but honestly, I don't think you're paying any more attention to what you're saying than you are to what Doug is saying. Here's why I say this: in the second quote in my comment here, you identified an argument of Doug's (an argument, mind you), and you called it "circular." Maybe it is, maybe it isn't; but it is an argument. If you can't find the argument, then you have nothing to label "circular." But you're tossing that label out there, which must mean you're trying to attach it to an argument.

I would suggest that you offer a bit of logos of your own, and interact with this argument of Doug's, instead of just standing at a distance and lobbing the "circular" charge over the berm. You're acting like we can all see what you mean, and frankly, you presume too much. All I see is contrariness, and no logos.
Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, November 26, 2012 11:03 am
TW: Though it seems the Bible clearly says women shouldn't have authority in the Church, in fact, it says no such thing.

DW: You're wrong, and risibly so, because the Bible clearly says women shouldn't have authority.

MP: Um...any arguments there? The only thing that even resembles an argument is the assertion Bible clearly says women shouldn't be pastors. But it's just a bald assertion, and begs the very issue at hand.

CL: It's an assertion, and therefore an argument. Indeed, you are therefore being stupid in your use of "argument" what you mean is "Pr. Wilson hasn't offered a cogent argument, but only offers crappy ones that do not begin to interact with Wright's argument."

Um...if that's how you want to define terms, sure.

Perhaps the confusion is this: If the translation of that verse is not in question, Pr. Wilson has offered an argument against women pastors. But it is precisely the translation of that verse that is at question, and he offers no argument on the translation of that verse.

What Pr. Wilson does is perhaps sufficient to establish a party spirit, and to establish himself as quasi infallible--since the only grounds we have for his interpretation of the verse is his own authority. But for those outside, he only, as Matt Weber says, establishes that he cannot defend the tradition, and that therefore it is indefensible.
holmegm  - re:  Monday, November 26, 2012 10:12 am
Matt Weber wrote:
What actually is the argument against women being authority figures in the church? It can't be that the Bible says they shall not be,


Ahem ... what?

Well, I guess if you get to preemptively declare that we can't ever use scripture or tradition to settle disagreements, then I suppose pop culture is as good as anything else.
Charles Long  Monday, November 26, 2012 10:17 am
Weber,

I suspect the reason you can't identify the argument is that you have predetermined what form the answer cannot come in, and the answer came to you in that form anyway. Feel free to offer some logos of your own on why the answer must be in such-n-such a form, but in the mean time you can't really make the charge that an answer wasn't given.
Matt Weber  Monday, November 26, 2012 10:35 am
What I meant is that the prohibition on women in positions of church authority is not a ritual requirement, e.g. keeping the Sabbath, so "the Bible says so" is not a sufficient justification. It has to relate somehow to the nature of women vs the requirements of positions of authority. If it is to be a specifically religious requirement, i.e. women can hold positions of authority outside the church, then it would pertain to the specific requirements of church authority, which is much more difficult.

I'm not prejudicing forms...I can see several different ways that this argument could be constructed. Perhaps women are intellectually or emotionally inferior, or if you don't like that word then "unsuitable", compared to men in some relevant way. Or maybe women have other responsibilities that preclude being in positions of authority. The major one would be child-bearing and rearing.

As far as I know Wilson doesn't believe either of those two (nor does the vast majority of modern liberal society), so what then is it?
holmegm  Monday, November 26, 2012 10:52 am
An apostle saying "don't do it that way" really isn't good enough? Why?

Forgive my simplicity, but I'm still stuck on that bit :D
Charles Long  - re:  Monday, November 26, 2012 11:02 am
Matt Weber wrote:
What I meant is that the prohibition on women in positions of church authority is not a ritual requirement, e.g. keeping the Sabbath, so "the Bible says so" is not a sufficient justification. It has to relate somehow to the nature of women vs the requirements of positions of authority.

So you're saying there are two options (ritual prohibition, and ontological prohibition), and that WO is not ritual, so therefore it must be ontologically based, or else not based at all. This about right?

Matt Weber wrote:

If it is to be a specifically religious requirement, i.e. women can hold positions of authority outside the church, then it would pertain to the specific requirements of church authority, which is much more difficult.

What would this look like? Could it look at all like an apostle issuing a prohibition against women being in authority? Could you give an example?

Matt Weber wrote:

I'm not prejudicing forms...I can see several different ways that this argument could be constructed. Perhaps women are intellectually or emotionally inferior, or if you don't like that word then "unsuitable", compared to men in some relevant way. Or maybe women have other responsibilities that preclude being in positions of authority. The major one would be child-bearing and rearing.


Wow. You slay me. Maybe I've completely misunderstood you, but I keep reading your comment the same way. Here -- I'm gonna make something up, totally out of the blue, and you tell me if this meets your criteria: "Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man [there's the prohibition, perhaps "ritual" all by itself]; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor[there's the ontological justification]. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control [and there's the "not this, but that" alternative behavior]." Would that count?

Matt Weber  Monday, November 26, 2012 11:03 am
Well, just as NT Wright isn't a celebrity, neither is St. Paul. In other words, what was Paul doing when he wrote that women shall not have authority over men? Was he stating some sort of divine truth straight from God ala Muhammed writing the Koran, conveying a conclusion derived from a widely established context that he saw no need to reiterate, or conveying a ritual rule for the Christian church based on some theological precept?
Matt Weber  Monday, November 26, 2012 11:10 am
Quote:
For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor[there's the ontological justification].


So women may not hold positions of authority because they are morally inferior to men and possess a weaker resistance to temptation. This is indeed a justification, but the point I was making is that this is a general truth about the world and not a religious rule. That is, women would be equally morally inferior were the Bible never written, and you don't need the Bible to observe this pattern.

The only other point is that this justification is not accepted by modern society, which is egalitarian. So scoffing at them will not work...they're right and those of us who disagree are just fossils. Blowing raspberries merely makes us hateful fossils instead of deluded ones.

If you want a parallel, see gay marriage.
katecho  Tuesday, November 27, 2012 12:14 am
Weber supplies us with several really deep observations for our reflection:
Quote:
this justification is not accepted by modern society, which is egalitarian

O dear, what shall we do if they don't accept our justification? [Or rather the justification that Weber wants to put in our mouths to help us along. See below]
Quote:
scoffing at them will not work...they're right and those of us who disagree are just fossils. Blowing raspberries merely makes us hateful fossils

At least we know who Weber thinks is right, and who is being hateful. He's so helpful. Although it confuses me when he uses the word "us" as if he is including himself.
Quote:
So women may not hold positions of authority because they are morally inferior to men and possess a weaker resistance to temptation.

This is the justification that Weber thinks we ought to use for our position? This is the justification he wants to put in our mouths? Is Weber running for PR campaign manager? Does he really expect us to take him seriously with this stuff? One can only assume that if he wasn't so resentful of Scripture, he might have offered something genuinely helpful, rather than his usual jabs. Ah well. Perhaps some day he may interact with what faithful Christians actually believe concerning submission and headship, and the created roles of the sexes.
Quote:
What actually is the argument against women being authority figures in the church? It can't be that the Bible says they shall not be, because the Bible is not a cosmic rule book and must comport with everyday experience.

What would we do without Weber to tell us what can and can't be?
Quote:
Well, just as NT Wright isn't a celebrity, neither is St. Paul.

We realized awhile ago that Weber doesn't accept the authority of Scripture. Instead he makes his appeal to "egalitarian society" and the "vast majority of modern liberal society", whatever that is this week. He comes from a paradigm that sees no difference between the authority of Paul and the authority of N.T. Wright. Given this, I'm not sure why Matt Weber still bothers to chime in on Wilson's posts, but I appreciate his feedback as an accurate gauge of how "modern liberals" react.
I watch for Weber's prompt objections as an indicator that Wilson is pressing just the right topics. It is a reflexive adherence to (post)modernism that you can set your clock by.

Doc  Monday, November 26, 2012 6:47 pm
M Weber said: "Was he stating some sort of divine truth straight from God ala Muhammed writing the Koran, conveying a conclusion derived from a widely established context that he saw no need to reiterate, or conveying a ritual rule for the Christian church based on some theological precept?"

Ah...that would be the former, except for the 'a la Muhammed' part; rather it is a la Elijah/Moses/Amos/Peter etc. IOW, he's an apostle, a prophet. He's relaying the reliable Word of God. What would make you think otherwise?
Charles Long  - re:  Monday, November 26, 2012 11:16 am
Matt Weber wrote:
...what was Paul doing when he wrote that women shall not have authority over men? Was he stating some sort of divine truth straight from God ala Muhammed writing the Koran, conveying a conclusion derived from a widely established context that he saw no need to reiterate, or conveying a ritual rule for the Christian church based on some theological precept?


Matt, this is where you get the horse laugh. Dude, you act like you're not even reading the scripture here. What was Paul doing in chapter 3 talking about elders and deacons? What was he doing in chapter 1 talking about Christ and the law? What did Paul say he was doing? You are smart enough for this sort of thing, Matt, which is why some people get incredulous when people like you (or Wright) shovel out the nonsense.

And this is the part where you cry out for logos, or whatever. I don't think you're going to be satisfied though, even if the logos dump truck were to make a grease spot of you in the middle of the street.
Charles Long  - re:  Monday, November 26, 2012 11:24 am
[quote=Matt Weber]
Quote:
The only other point is that this justification is not accepted by modern society, which is egalitarian. So scoffing at them will not work...they're right and those of us who disagree are just fossils. Blowing raspberries merely makes us hateful fossils instead of deluded ones.

If you want a parallel, see gay marriage.

Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD and against his Anointed, saying, “Let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their cords from us.” He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision.
(Psalm 2:1-4 ESV)

Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, November 26, 2012 12:09 pm
Charles:

I may be reading Matt wrong, but it sounds to me that he is on your side regarding the issue, but not regarding the rhetoric. Perhaps that's just a rhetorical posture he's taking, but even so, he's right. If we just mock, we come off as stupid AND hateful. We'd do better just being silent, and being thought wise.

Remember, the Church has never answered heresies by only mocking. Is there some mockery? Yes. Is that advisable today? Debatably, no. But is only mockery good? Definitely not. The Cappodocians won, not because they mocked, but because they reasoned (though they did mock). Cyril won, not because he mocked, but because he reasoned (though he did mock). Etc. I fail to see why the present crisis is so much worse than past ones that we can reason no longer. Indeed, it seems that an inability to reason betrays weakness and gives the game away.

This is what happens to me in other areas--the more I see Pr. Wilson or Pr. Sumpter mock the Orthodox without engaging them, the more it seems the Orthodox must have the stronger position.
Charles Long  Monday, November 26, 2012 1:44 pm
Matthew Petersen,

There are two problems with your position here.

1) The first, and most conspicuous to most people here, is that Doug HAS argued his point, not simply mocked. This inconvenient fact keeps turning your blade, but you keep thrusting anyway. I am not the first person to try to point this out to you, and this is not the first time you have ignored attempts to hold it in front of your face. The fact that some people do not get the argument is not necessarily the fault of the argument -- this is a point Doug has been making about Wright, and, as it turns out, you are offering yourself as a wonderful living demonstration of his point.

2) Sometimes all that's offered the rebels is mockery, and no substantive argument other than to point a joyfully indignant finger in the general direction of reality. What was Elijah's argument at the altar of Baal? Can you outline it? What were his premises? I bet I can list his insults faster than you can identify his argument.

I'll go one step further -- if you can identify a logical argument in Elijah, but cannot identify one here from Doug, then I call Total B.S. on you, and will horse laugh even louder.
Charles Long  Monday, November 26, 2012 1:49 pm
Matthew Petersen,

Also, remember that to some people, we will always come across as hateful and stupid, not because the argument was not understood, but rather precisely because it was understood perfectly. Gay marriage is a better example of this than of anything else. This is why prophets mock. This is why God mocks.
Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, November 26, 2012 3:36 pm
Yet I and others have repeatedly shown there aren't arguments. Yes, Pr. Wilson says something that if true, would prove Wright wrong. His position on what is true is easy enough to find. But he does not defend his position. And it is this lacking defense of his position which would constitute an argument--were it offered.

Again, I'm not in favor of female pastors. But I find unsubstantiated charges of dishonesty very unbecoming.
Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, November 26, 2012 3:50 pm
Indeed, it seems that the point of this post is: "Yes, there isn't an argument, but that's good, because he only deserves mockery."
Charles Long  - re:  Monday, November 26, 2012 2:08 pm
Matthew N. Petersen wrote:

This is what happens to me in other areas--the more I see Pr. Wilson or Pr. Sumpter mock the Orthodox without engaging them, the more it seems the Orthodox must have the stronger position.


Matthew Peterson,

I hope that one day you will be able to see how silly this sounds. "I can't help becoming Orthodox, because these guys just keep giving me bad arguments. It's not my fault!" Whatever. Dude, if you wanna be EO, then just man up and do it. Take some personal responsibility for the choice, for crying out loud. You have come across as such a pro-EO contrarian for quite some time now (as in, like, years), and that's coming from a guy that doesn't even know you.
Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, November 26, 2012 3:32 pm
And rhetoric is the means of finding the available means of persuasion in any given situation. If our rhetorical efforts drive people from our position, perhaps we should reconsider our efforts. If refusal to listen, and instead, mockery, drives people away, perhaps we should listen a bit more?

I never thought that not being Orthodox would get me demerits here. Weird. Just because I think Orthodox are Christians, worthy of being listened to, and just because I have Orthodox friends does not imply I am about to become Orthodox. It's people like Dr. Leithart, or Alastair http://alastairadversaria.wordpress.com/, who offer a thoughtful Protestantism that listens to their opponents that draw me toward being Protestant. But evidently, listening to the Orthodox, while not converting gives me demerits. Strange.
Charles Long  - re:  Monday, November 26, 2012 4:36 pm
Matthew N. Petersen wrote:
If our rhetorical efforts drive people from our position, perhaps we should reconsider our efforts. If refusal to listen, and instead, mockery, drives people away, perhaps we should listen a bit more?


Again, please apply this to Elijah and the prophets of Baal. Explain.

Sometimes, all you can do is tell the truth, and sometimes the lie you're countering is just absofreekinlootly ridiculous. Sometimes the "gentle persuasion" ship has sailed long ago, having been escorted by HMS Linear Thought, and we'd all be naive to think otherwise. The fool says in his heart "There is no God;" and the flaming idiot says out loud that boys and girls are interchangeable.

Matthew N. Petersen wrote:
I never thought that not being Orthodox would get me demerits here. Weird. Just because I think Orthodox are Christians, worthy of being listened to... But evidently, listening to the Orthodox, while not converting gives me demerits. Strange.

Nice try, but no. You don't get demerits for listening to EOs, and no, you're not the lone martyr here who thinks they're Christians. If you get demerits, it's for not paying attention, and for appearing to be contrary for its own sake, and for taking people's particular statements in isolation and exploiting in military fashion, as though there wasn't an entire body of literature rounding out the position. Oh, and for the occasional martyr complex that bleeds through from time to time. C'mon, Matthew -- you haven't answered a single question I've posed to you here, yet (oh, the irony) your whole beef here is Doug's refusal to engage..!?! This is why you get demerits. I love you, man, but dude -- sometimes you can be tedious.
Charles Long  Monday, November 26, 2012 8:23 pm
Petersen,

Have you noticed that you're adding comments out of sequence? I just realized you've been doing this, and I'm finding it very difficult to follow the sequence of the conversation when you do it. Plus it's a convoluted mess for anyone else trying to read through the thread. If you use the reply button for anything but the most recent comment, your comment gets buried in the middle of the thread, out of chronological sequence. That's why I've been using the quote button instead.

I am fine with continuing our conversation, but just so you know I am not going to go back through this thread and try to reconstruct the sequence by looking at time stamps. Just not gonna happen.
Christopher Casey  Monday, November 26, 2012 8:42 pm
Matthew N. Petersen wrote:
The thing is, Arius, or Nestorius offer far greater howlers than Wright. And when I read Athanasius, or Basil, or Cyril, I find some mockery. But I also find argument. But here, I'm only finding mockery.


That's because this is a blog, if Athanasius or Basil, or Cyril had blogs you would find much the same thing.
Lukesma  - Sheesh stuffing  Monday, November 26, 2012 9:09 pm
Matt, if you agree that DW is right that the KJV has clearly and accurately translated 1 Timothy 2:12, why must you play Mr. Logic Scissors and stamp up and down insisting that DW satisfy your demands for logical proof exactly how you demand them?

Suppose I grant, for sake of argument, that DW hasn't included a speck of logic. You already agree with him that NT Wright has mis-translated this verse profoundly. If Wright were doing this to Exodus 20:14, concluding that God does indeed approve of prostitution, and DW mocked him for it, I hardly think you would take Wright's scholarly aura so seriously.

Your brother in Christ,
Luke
Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, November 26, 2012 10:30 pm
What? I haven't demanded that he produce an argument, it started with a question. I then had to defend that question because no one else seemed to understand the difference between a bald assertion and an argument.

When he responded by defending the mockery and utter lack of logos, I replied that although mockery is good sometimes, it should be combined with logic, and slanderous charges of lying against brothers should not be countenanced in whatever circumstance. Do you disagree? Otherwise, it sounds to me that you're the one with exacting standards you're demanding I meet.

I didn't say that Wright is egregiously mistranslating that passage. I agree that women shouldn't be pastors, and I believe Wright's translation of that passage is probably wrong. But that's a very obscure passage--women will be saved by childbearing?--and it wouldn't hurt for people to try to figure out what on earth St. Paul means there.

I'm also not sure why you think you can claim I'm "stamp up and down insisting that DW satisfy your demands for logical proof exactly how you demand them?" I haven't "stamped up and down", whatever that means, and I haven't even said anything about the quality of the logos, only that it be there. Do you think logic is optional? I know you don't. So why pretend you do?

If Wright were to translate the eighth commandment backwards? Or if some hack were to do so? Would there not be a difference between the two? Does the historical interpretative history of the Ten Commands mean nothing? Is not the obscurity of I Timothy relevant?

Why aside from Wright's reputation would one think that one should have logos in a response to him? Is the fact that classically, logos is important, and though not all important, ought not be neglected, relevant? Is the fact that this sort of presentation tends to make Pr. Wilson a celebrity who gets to say what he wants without argument relevant? Is the fact that this sort of presentation will only harden already formed prejudices against our opponents, and against ourselves relevant? Is the fact that this sort of presentation will only make Christians with traditional views of the ministry look like bigoted hate-mongers not relevant? Is the fact that Pr. Wilson has not only mocked Wright's interpretation, but claimed Wright is lying not relevant? Is this sort of slander of a brother the sort of thing Wilson can get away with? Is he such a celebrity that people who call him on it are charged with stomping around demanding he meet our arbitrary, exacting standards?
katecho  Monday, November 26, 2012 11:31 pm
Matthew N. Petersen seems to be a broken record of accusations. It doesn't even seem to matter what topic Wilson is addressing. Wilson is always guilty regardless.
Perhaps Matthew thinks that if he asserts 100 times that Wilson has made no arguments, then perhaps a few people will believe him. It does get old though.
Matthew N. Petersen said:
Quote:
Is the fact that Pr. Wilson has not only mocked Wright's interpretation, but claimed Wright is lying not relevant? Is this sort of slander of a brother the sort of thing Wilson can get away with?

Wilson did not grant Wright's contextualization, nor did Wilson cower at Wright's credentials, or to the unspecified consensus of "solid scholarship". Perhaps Matthew counts that as an insult.
I saw where Wilson used wit and the example of Zeke to point out where Wright's method of eisegesis can go absurdly wrong. This was a reductio ad absurdum argument, but apparently Matthew N. Petersen considers such forms of argument to be nothing but simple mockery. In any case I was just not able to find where Wilson accused Wright of lying. Matthew N. Petersen seems to be the only one who saw that, and he repeats the charge in just about every post now. Maybe Matthew can provide a quote of Wilson accusing Wright of lying, so we can examine it. Eisegesis doesn't necessarily have to produce a lie. One could eisegete a text and still come up with a truth. One could possibly even come up with the same meaning intended by the author, but eisegesis is just not a valid practice for those who are claiming "solid scholarship".
Rather what Wilson does is point out Wright's method of contextualization (which was not difficult because Wright didn't conceal it), and Wilson uses the example of Zeke to ask how Wright would object to Zeke's "translation". Perhaps Matthew N. Petersen can help explain how Wright should object to Zeke's "translation". If Wright can produce a new narrative to arrive at his desired "translation", why can't Zeke? That's the argument that is on the table. And it is still on the table whether Matthew N. Petersen acknowledges it or not.
Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, November 26, 2012 11:49 pm
Quote:
I saw where Wilson used wit and the example of Zeke to point out where Wright's method of eisegesis can go absurdly wrong. This was a reductio ad absurdum argument
I see absolutely nothing in common between Wright's translation and Zeke's. And this definitely is not a reductio. A reductio follows the form If P then Q and ~Q, (or something else clearly false) and that the contradiction follows is the result of argument. But Pr. Wilson did not even attempt to draw the connections between Wright's translation and Zeke's, only saying that what sounds like a somewhat stretched translation--though for all I know it resolves many of the difficulties with that passage--and a completely arbitrary translation are the same sort of thing. That's not a reductio, that's mockery. Now as I have repeatedly said, mockery isn't necessarily bad. But mockery alone is.

Quote:
Wilson did not grant Wright's contextualization, nor did Wilson cower at Wright's credentials, or to the unspecified consensus of "solid scholarship"
Nor did I say he should. I said he should respect him as a generally faithful scholar, and that he should therefore include reasons along with the mockery. If actually listening, and giving an intelligent response is cowering...

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In any case I was just not able to find where Wilson accused Wright of lying.


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First, Wright clears his throat nervously, because he is smart enough to know that there are other smart people out there in the world, and if they happen along, they will see right through what he is doing. Not only is he blowing smoke, it seems that he knows that he is.


And later
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The reason Wright sounds so furtive is that, after much mincing discussion, he is about to pull a translation ninja move.
A ninja move that he, according to the earlier point, made knowingly.

The name for knowingly blowing smoke and pulling ninja moves is lying.
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Perhaps Matthew N. Petersen can help explain how Wright should object to Zeke's "translation".
Um...by saying that's not what those words mean? By pointing out that there were no stick shifts then? By pointing out that no word there could plausibly be translated "yell"? Similarly with "biscuits"? Similarly with "like"? By pointing out that butter wasn't a Roman thing? Are you really so stupid you need to ask??????????
katecho  Tuesday, November 27, 2012 1:00 am
Matthew N. Petersen wrote:
Quote:
A reductio follows the form If P then Q and ~Q

That's the form Wilson used in his reductio. In particular, Wilson used a reductio ad absurdum, so the Q part is something that is intentionally absurd, as with Zeke's "translation". Matthew can call it empty mockery all day, but employing an absurd condition is part of the form of a reductio ad absurdum. Matthew needs to eventually come to terms with this form of argument. If Wright wishes to object to Zeke's contextualization, which I would hope that he would, then how is it different, in methodology, from the contextualized narrative that Wright produced to ensure his conclusion? In other words, if Wright would take the ~Q position against Zeke, then he has to explain how Q (Zeke's "translation") is not a legitimate methodology as that used in P (Wright's "translation").
Matthew N. Petersen also wrote:
Quote:
The name for knowingly blowing smoke and pulling ninja moves is lying.

This appears to be confirmation that Matthew N. Petersen can't produce a quote of Wilson accusing Wright of lying. It seems that Matthew is so eager to condemn Wilson that everything we all know about rhetorical flourish is somehow supposed to be illegal. Wilson is not allowed to use any artful descriptions of Wright's tactics without being painted by Matthew N. Petersen as a crass accuser of the brethren.
Imagine if you and a friend are disputing about something, and they are skipping over a few steps in their arguments because they know their case is weak. Is there a difference between saying to your friend, "you just pulled a fast one there", or "stop trying to pull the wool over my eyes", or "you're a liar"? Apparently Matthew N. Petersen sees all of these as interchangeable and completely equivalent language. Hopefully the rest of us can see that two of those phrases are actually idioms intended to provide an out, and to avoid unnecessary rancor. They are a form of tact that provides a release valve in the dialog. Matthew N. Petersen seems to need to see rancor in Wilson's words, so he put words in Wilson's mouth.
Notice that the phase "putting words in someone else's mouth" is another idiom, intended to mollify a more rancorous charge that I could have made instead.
katecho  Tuesday, November 27, 2012 1:24 am
I had said:
Quote:
Perhaps Matthew N. Petersen can help explain how Wright should object to Zeke's "translation".

And Matthew N. Petersen responded:

Quote:
Um...by saying that's not what those words mean? By pointing out that there were no stick shifts then? By pointing out that no word there could plausibly be translated "yell"? Similarly with "biscuits"? Similarly with "like"? By pointing out that butter wasn't a Roman thing? Are you really so stupid you need to ask??????????


Goodness. Matthew N. Petersen has implied that I'm stupid. Is Matthew being Christlike toward a brother? We have learned from Matthew that an implication of deceptive tactics is equal to accusing someone of being a liar. So then it must follow that the implication that I'm stupid is identical to a charge from Matthew that I am, in fact, stupid. Goodness.

Anyway, Matthew has finally responded to the argument and challenge that Wilson originally offered. This may be the closest thing we will get from him as an admission that Wilson actually provided an argument.

Matthew is apparently objecting that the Greek words in the 1 Timothy text don't refer to stick shifts, biscuits, or butter. Is Matthew suggesting that we should limit our translations to what the Greek words actually mean? I think Matthew is starting to catch on to the problem with Wright's "translation". Contextualization isn't translation.
Matthew N. Petersen  Tuesday, November 27, 2012 8:19 am
Matthew doesn't think you're dumb. Matthew thinks you're playing dumb so as to be insulting and rude.
Matthew N. Petersen  Tuesday, November 27, 2012 9:02 am
Case in point:
katecho wrote:
Matthew is apparently objecting that the Greek words in the 1 Timothy text don't refer to stick shifts, biscuits, or butter. Is Matthew suggesting that we should limit our translations to what the Greek words actually mean?
Yes, Matthew is hinting our translations should be translations. However, katecho seems to have mistaken the difference between possibility and actuality. Just because Pr. Wilson could raise an argument against Wright's translation does not mean he has. But apparently such elementary distinctions blow past katecho.
katecho  Tuesday, November 27, 2012 12:16 am
Weber supplies us with several really deep observations for our reflection:
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this justification is not accepted by modern society, which is egalitarian

O dear, what shall we do if they don't accept our justification? [Or rather the justification that Weber wants to put in our mouths to help us along. See below]

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scoffing at them will not work...they're right and those of us who disagree are just fossils. Blowing raspberries merely makes us hateful fossils

At least we know who Weber thinks is right, and who is being hateful. He's so helpful. Although it confuses me when he uses the word "us" as if he is including himself.

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So women may not hold positions of authority because they are morally inferior to men and possess a weaker resistance to temptation.

This is the justification that Weber thinks we ought to use for our position? This is the justification he wants to put in our mouths? Is Weber running for PR campaign manager? Does he really expect us to take him seriously with this stuff? One can only assume that if he wasn't so resentful of Scripture, he might have offered something genuinely helpful, rather than his usual jabs. Ah well. Perhaps some day he may interact with what faithful Christians actually believe concerning submission and headship, and the created roles of the sexes.

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What actually is the argument against women being authority figures in the church? It can't be that the Bible says they shall not be, because the Bible is not a cosmic rule book and must comport with everyday experience.

What would we do without Weber to tell us what can and can't be?

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Well, just as NT Wright isn't a celebrity, neither is St. Paul.

We realized awhile ago that Weber doesn't accept the authority of Scripture. Instead he makes his appeal to "egalitarian society" and the "vast majority of modern liberal society", whatever that is this week. He comes from a paradigm that sees no difference between the authority of Paul and the authority of N.T. Wright. Given this, I'm not sure why Matt Weber still bothers to chime in on Wilson's posts, but I appreciate his feedback as an accurate gauge of how "modern liberals" react.
I watch for Weber's prompt objections as an indicator that Wilson is pressing just the right topics. It is a reflexive adherence to (post)modernism that you can set your clock by.

Matt Weber  Tuesday, November 27, 2012 6:07 am
Katecho, you're nuts. I'm not even going to bother, as you are clearly incapable of understanding what is being said. But keep doubling down on the ridicule. One day you'll win!

See, I agree that mockery is sometimes the only sensible response.
Jonathan  Tuesday, November 27, 2012 8:02 am
I have little else to say right now except the verse I quoted previously:

"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to everyone, an apt teacher, patient, correcting opponents with gentleness." - 2 Timothy 3:24-25.

These posts and the resulting threads have reminded me how much more careful I need to be about my own words and arguments. When I write blogs and comment on them, do I write even a little bit with ambition or conceit, or do I humbly consider the "others" I am dialoging with as better than myself? I think we need to do our best to be the lights to the world that we are called to be, and the above reproach and well-thought-of leaders that we aspire to be (yes, I know that is asked of bishops specifically, but I would suspect that it is desired of all who take on Christian leadership).

In that sense I think that how we say the things we say matters, in addition to the substance. And that goes for all of us making these comments, as well as Pastor Wilson and N.T. Wright.
Jonathan  Tuesday, November 27, 2012 9:08 am
I do also want to offer an apology for the manner in which I have criticized some of the other commenters on this site. Regardless of whether or not you agree that I need to repent for sin or not, I believe that a certain type of aggression I sometimes use when I attack certain arguments and their arguers can be counterproductive and sets a bad example, and I apologize for that.
Ralph  - This is NOT a pipe...  Friday, November 30, 2012 3:02 pm
Wilson's argument here has nothing at all to do with womens ordination (WO) itself, rather on HOW TO ARGUE (or more accurately how NOT to argue) about it--when you're already convinced of Wilson's WO argument. Rev. Wilson even references his arguments on the meaning of I Tim. 2:12--where his actual argument on WO is found.

He's only saying that when you take seriously, and give credit to, an argument that is nonsense, you've already lost--as liberal/revisionist exegetical argumentation isn't logic...or "algebra," rather its political, and based often on social pressure. (How many pastors won't dare teach about WO, due to...women in their congregation, or even their own wives, taking offense?)

When evangelicals give credit by saying things like, "Well, devout Bible scholars disagree on the virgin birth..." you've already LOST the argument--as you're professing credibility in your opponent's argument, WHERE THERE IS NONE.

On Wright's WO arguments specifically, clearly Wilson believes he's fallen into the "liberal lying" camp--and in this piece Wilson is encouraging conservatives to abandon "Gullibility's Travels" and follow the manly example of the biblical prophets, and even Jesus Himself--to ridicule lying liberal nonsense, as to take it seriously, keeps it on the table, where the children are liable to eat it up--when it belongs safely in the trash bin.
Ralph  Friday, November 30, 2012 3:08 pm
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
(Pr 26:4,5)
Eric Rasmusen  - Science Departments and Anglo-Catholics  Monday, December 10, 2012 9:28 pm
"The deal was that the conservatives were willing for this particular sin (and never forget that it is a sin) to occur elsewhere in the church. They were accustomed to that kind of thing (sin elsewhere) -- so long as they were allowed to refrain from participating in themselves. When women are priests, they can still be priests somewhere else. An evangelical parish can still say no to women priests."

There is a parallel in universities. The science departments are willing to let political correctness, grade inflation, etc. run rampant in the rest of the university. So far they've done ok in maintaining quality. That's only because they get big external grants, though, so the administrators are afraid to mess with them.