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Engaging the Culture - Old Table Talk Articles
Written by Douglas Wilson   
Saturday, 14 July 2007 05:04

If an autobiographical note can be permitted, I spent a number of years in Christian ministry before I came to the Reformed faith. I recall one time when I was witnessing to members of a cult, one devoted to works righteousness, and my presentation of grace successfully provoked the same objection that Paul had to answer in the sixth chapter of Romans. "If what you are saying is true, then why can’t we get to sin up a storm?" I was presenting the same gospel Paul preached, and not surprisingly it provoked the same reaction.

But there was one objection that I never provoked. During all that time, no one ever said to me, "Wilson, if what you are saying is true, then why does God still find fault with us? For who can resist His will?" (Rom. 9:19) However, after I came to a Reformed understanding of grace, I discovered why people had never said anything that resembled v. 19 to me. It was because I never said v. 18. As soon as I affirmed v. 18 (and in some cases, as soon as I hinted at it), I couldn’t get people to stop bringing this issue up.

The point here is not to answer this particular objection to election, at least not to anyone’s satisfaction. The central point is to point out the fact of this objection, and its essential identity with the objection that Paul had to handle. Paul anticipated this objection, which meant that no doubt he had been in more than one discussion in the back of more than one synagogue after one of his sermons on the sovereignty of God. Those who want to reject a Reformed understanding of these chapters have an exegetical responsibility which I have never seen them assume. This responsibility is to show how their interpretation of these chapters could possibly provoke this objection. The reason they have difficulty doing this is because their exegesis of the passage is actually driven by the objection, and hence cannot be an adequate response to it. They have more sympathy with Paul’s nameless objector than they do with Paul.

None of this is said with an intent to disparage, because the problem really is a thorny one. If I may continue my testimony, it had me by the throat for years. All of us feel the impulse to raise the objection. It is preeminently reasonable, at least initially. When I finally came to the Reformed faith, one of the first to raise it to me was my oldest daughter who was in sixth grade at the time. In our table talk, we were working through these great issues around the dinner table. And now it is in someone else’s Table Talk.

But the objection, at the heart, is not an objection to "Calvinism." In principle, it is an objection to the Christian faith, not to the Reformed faith, and the ultimate target is not the doctrine of election, but the doctrine of creation. The Bible teaches that God will judge the world. But the world He will judge is in the condition it is in because He created it. He made it. And who can resist His will? Both sides of the debate acknowledge that He created it (irresistably) knowing full well what would happen if He did. For both Calvinists and Arminians, God looked at all of human history, all the pain and suffering, all the unbelief, all the stumbling blocks, and, having seen it all, He still said, "Let there be light." When we have all parties speak into the microphone (which some are admittedly reluctant to do), we see that every form of orthodox Christianity provokes the objection, at least in principle.

Some, in what is called the openness of God movement, have sought to get around this problem of evil and judgment by maintaining that God does not know the future. But this solves no problems at all. The doctrines of creation and providence still mean that God made the world the way it is, and he lets the world be the way it is right now, and He will judge the world for being the way it is. Process theologians (rightly) have charged the openness theists of radical inconsistency at this point. If the charge against God is that He created the world the way it is and hence cannot rightly judge it, it is no solution at all to blindfold him before he creates. Will we insist that he keep the blindfold on at the judgment as well? Given the spirit of this objection, the spirit revealed in v. 19, the only way out is to deny that God created the world. And we should look for this as an upcoming development in "evangelical" theology.

We can find peace, however, if we heed Paul’s response to all this. He is the apostle, and he knows how this whole thing is to be handled. He says to us all -- uppity pots -- to keep our lid on. God made us, and it follows from this, that He knows what He is doing. Shall the pot say to the potter, "Whoa! Who told you that you know how to do this? Let me see your diploma from an accredited pottery academy."? God made us, He created us. We in our pride see this as the problem. But it is the solution. He is the Creator. And we are not.



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ian robertson  Saturday, July 14, 2007 11:01 am
I would like to know how you involved v.18 when you were witnessing. At what point did you bring it up?
John Barry  Saturday, July 14, 2007 11:30 am
"Process theologians (rightly) have charged the openness theists of radical inconsistency at this point."

Where exactly is the radical inconsistency?

John Barry  Saturday, July 14, 2007 1:18 pm
"Those who want to reject a Reformed understanding of these chapters have an exegetical responsibility which I have never seen them assume. This responsibility is to show how their interpretation of these chapters could possibly provoke this objection."

What is the Reformed understanding of these chapters--that I may reject it? :)

I can readily see how a hypothetical questioner (possibly a Jew opposed to Paul's gospel), whose heart is already somewhat hard, upon hearing that God has mercy upon whomever He wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills, could respond with the question in v. 19. And Paul answers with more objectionable information--perhaps hardening his heart further.

Paul doesn't give him a plain answer, such as: "God doesn't find fault with those who believe. They are not put to shame." And, "You know full well that it is possible to resist God's will. You're doing so now."

Gene  Saturday, July 14, 2007 1:56 pm
John, Paul's answer is unclear only if you would rather he had said something else. The whole point is that God chooses men in salvation, men do not and cannot choose God. If you preach that men must choose God, then you will not get the same reaction Paul got, hence Pastor Wilson's point. It is a very easy test. When you share the Gospel do folks ever respond with "If God chooses anyway, what difference does it make what I do?" If they do not, then perhaps you are not using the message as Paul. God Bless,
Douglas Wilson  Saturday, July 14, 2007 4:50 pm
And John, after agreeing with what Gene said, I would go back to your earlier question. The radical inconsistency is that process theology sees that the only way to absolve God of responsibility for evil is to deny that He is the Creator. All Christians hold to creation from nothing, including the openness guys, which actually makes them inconsistent or confused Calvinists. The world is the way it is, because it is the will of God that it be this way. The only way to get away from that is by denying the doctrine of creation.
John Barry  Sunday, July 15, 2007 5:12 am
Gene, Do you understand Paul, in Romans 9:18, to be saying that since God chooses those who are saved, what one does makes no difference? Is this what Paul is saying here?
John Barry  Sunday, July 15, 2007 6:15 am
Douglas, How does the Calvinist absolve God of responsibility for evil?

"The world is the way it is, because it is the will of God that it be this way."

What do you mean by the "will of God" here?

John Barry  Sunday, July 15, 2007 6:24 am
Gene, Your "easy test" is flawed. Paul hadn't fully declared the gospel when the hypothetical questioner speaks up in 9:19. So the question arises in the context of incomplete information, (as is the case in 3:8 and 6:1,15) and perhaps, as I suppose, an "attitude" on the part of the hypothetical questioner.

As we continue through chapters 9, 10, and 11, we learn that God's election, or choosing, is not the sole conditon of salvation. *Belief* is another. Salvation is synergistic. This is everywhere manifest in Scipture.

Gene  Sunday, July 15, 2007 9:44 am
John:

Romans 9:18 is pretty dang clear unless you wish it said something else. God chooses, period, the end. Otherwise the objection that Paul raises in v. 19 makes absolutely no sense.

Do you understand that this is not the first question that needs to be answered? What is our nature before God saves us? Are we spiritually dead or are we only mostly dead? "You were really sick in your trespasses?" "On the day you eat it, you'll feel terrible?"

What belief does a dead man exhibit? Faith from a corpse looks like, what? Paul tells us that God grants repentance (2 Tim 2:25). What the heck is that all about? You need to answer the question about our spiritual condition after the fall before you can determine who is active in salvation. Salvation is going to be from something. Is it death or is it being really, really sick? Paul sure seems to say that we are dead in our trespasses, that no one seeks after God and the there is none that is righteous, no not one. God Bless,

Douglas Wilson  Sunday, July 15, 2007 10:22 am
John, let me put the challenge to you another way. Write a fictional conversation between a nonbeliever and a (free will) Christian. Have the Christian state the claims of the gospel in such a way that the nonbeliever responds with the substance of v. 19, and have that objection be consistent with the flow of the discussion. My contention here is that for someone in your position, this is an impossibility. But you could prove me wrong. I would do a little sideways happy face here, but I don't like those things.
Gene  Sunday, July 15, 2007 12:08 pm
;-)>
Gene  Sunday, July 15, 2007 12:09 pm
That bottom part is the beard. And mine is longer than Pastor Wilson's. My pick up is bigger than his and I have more chickens that RC Jr. So there.
John Barry  Sunday, July 15, 2007 2:38 pm
FWC (Free Will Christian): So, are you familiar with the Old Testament?

NBWA (Nonbeliever with an Attitude): Yes. Fairly so.

FWC: Do you remember that God promised Abraham and Sarah a son when they were well beyond the years for childbearing? And that this promised son, Isaac, and his wife, Rebecca conceived twin boys—and God, in continuing his purpose in choosing, told Isaac and Rebecca, before the boys were even born, that the elder would serve the younger?

NBWA: Wait a second. That doesn’t seem fair.

FWC: There’s more. Many years later, God declares to Moses that He has mercy on whom He has mercy, and compassion on whom He has compassion. And before this, God declared that he raised up Pharaoh to show His power in him, so that His name would be proclaimed in all the earth. So not only does God have mercy upon whomever He wills, but He hardens the heart of whomever He wills. (cont.)

John Barry  Sunday, July 15, 2007 2:41 pm
NBWA: Well, if that’s the way your God operates, how can he hold me responsible for my actions? Who can resist his will?

FWC: Hey! I’d be careful how you talk about God. But as to your question, you can resist His will. You are doing so now by not believing Him.

NBWA: What does believing have to do with it—with God choosing me to salvation or damning me to hell?

FWC: God’s choosing you is not the sole condition of your salvation. Your believing Him is another. We see God’s choosing and man’s believing in the conversion of the apostle Paul: The Lord tells Ananias that Paul is God’s chosen instrument to carry His name to the Gentiles, kings and the children of Israel. And Paul testifies of his conversion that he “was not disobedient to the heavenly vision”. So God chooses Paul. And Paul believes and obeys God....

John Barry  Sunday, July 15, 2007 2:49 pm
Douglas, I asked you above how the Calvinist absolves God of responsibility for evil. What say ye?
John Barry  Sunday, July 15, 2007 2:55 pm
Gene, as to the condition of the sinner apart from Christ, three metaphors (each used by Paul, I believe) come to mind: dead in sin, weak, and enslaved to sin and law.
Gene  Sunday, July 15, 2007 3:35 pm
John:

You are correct: Eph. 2:1 "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins..." Rom. 8:3 "For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh..." Gal 4:6-7 "And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”
Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ."

Which of these make you feel that we have a say in our salvation? "Dead, weak through the flesh and slavery" does not sound like the language of power in this particular situation. Perhaps you have a different view of weakness, death and slavery than I do. God Bless,

Gene  Sunday, July 15, 2007 3:41 pm
John:

The question was not directed at me, and I would not presume to answer for Pastor Wilson, BUT, Paul was kind of laying in the dirt and blind after getting knocked off his horse. He seems to to be the exact opposite of a seeker. IMHO, of course. God Bless,

Gene  Sunday, July 15, 2007 4:05 pm
And John, evil is not all that hard a question if you do not make "evil" a substance that can be accumulated. This person is more evil than that one because he does more evil things...

God seems to lay out life in terms of obedience or disobedience; faith or unbelief. Of course God is setting up a situation where disobedience is possible when he says, "Do Not Covet." But only a great fool would say that God's prohibition of covetousness is actually making any of us indulge in covetousness. We are enticed and drawn away by our own desires. That is what we get from Adam. Do not think that the thing created can say to the Creator, "Why have you made me like this..." Who are you to answer back to God? God Bless,

Rob Steele  Sunday, July 15, 2007 4:29 pm
Pastor Wilson, you use some expressions like "knowing full well what would happen if He did" that seem to situate God in time as if He had to wait for the future like we do. I can't tell whether you're using the idea merely in a manner of speaking or whether you think God's relation to time is like ours. Doesn’t He know full well what will happen because He's there already creating it? ("Already" is an unfortunate time word which just shows how hard it is to talk about this.) Time, awesome as it is, is only one of His inventions and can’t contain Him any more than space does. That is to say, He certainly is present in space and time, most profoundly present. But those dimensions are not His environment in the same sense that they’re ours. They’re our fishbowl. We can’t really conceive of anything bigger than size or more eternal than forever but God must be both. Is there a temporal doctrine to match omnipresence? Didn’t C. S. Lewis cover this somewhere?


Paul's objectors might as well ask why God bothers with creation in the first place. Why not leave it as an academic exercise without making it actual it in all its evil and suffering? Believing that creation was a good idea requires faith in God’s character and wisdom. I’m certain Lewis mentioned that.

Kyle S.  Sunday, July 15, 2007 9:32 pm
John,



God knowingly and intentionally ordered things in such a way that evil was ensured -- he's its cause, if you like. Why isn’t he blameworthy?



It’s because he has really good reasons for having done this. O felix culpa quae talem et tantum meruit habere redemptorem. Or, to paraphrase Augustine: no fall, no incarnation, atonement, and resurrection.

John Barry  Sunday, July 15, 2007 11:36 pm
So the Calvinist absolves God of responsibility for evil by blurring the distinction between good and evil. Fundamentally, there is no such thing as evil, says the Calvinist. It's all good.

I can see the appeal of this view.

Gene  Monday, July 16, 2007 12:13 am
Not at all, John! Evil just functions better as an adjective rather than a noun. Think in terms of faith and unbelief, obedience and disobedience, rather than a dualistic good-evil dichotomy. God Bless,
Mark F  Monday, July 16, 2007 1:17 am
Gene:
But only a great fool would say that God's prohibition of covetousness is actually making any of us indulge in covetousness.


So I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.

Douglas Wilson  Monday, July 16, 2007 1:34 am
John, I absolve God (what ludicrous words!) of evil on the same principle that causes me to absolve Shakespeare of Macbeth's murders.
John Barry  Monday, July 16, 2007 2:13 am
"John, I absolve God (what ludicrous words!) of evil on the same principle that causes me to absolve Shakespeare of Macbeth's murders."

Douglas, I did a double take when I read that. I thought Christopher Hitchens had strayed onto your blog.

Bill Harris  Monday, July 16, 2007 2:23 am
So John, quick, I'm holding my breath, Douglas absolved God. Any other questions?
John Barry  Monday, July 16, 2007 2:25 am
Douglas, Your response strikes me as evasive. I really don't know what you mean by it. Do you mean that everything apart from God is a fiction? Or that murder is not real? If you mean that absolving God of evil is a ludicrous or fruitless exercise, then why not say so plainly?
Gene  Monday, July 16, 2007 2:47 am
Oh, come now, John!

God does no evil and tempts no one to do evil. God hardened Pharoah's heart and then killed him for having a hard heart. You keep using that word evil, but I don't think it means what you think it means. So, clearly you cannot choose the cup in front of you. God Bless,

Charles Long  Monday, July 16, 2007 2:59 am
John Barry,

[br][br]Let's look at the potential ludicrousness of your position. I mean, fair's fair, and equal standards for both parties and all, right?

[br][br]I seem to recall having asked you this question before (if not, well, here it is for the first time): Is there anything that God wants more than for all created men to be saved?

[br][br]If you answer YES, then what is that thing? If I have you pegged, you would answer answer YES, and say that God wants man to have free will. Which could easily be reworded: "God would rather free us from Him than free us from hell." It seems that this is the position you're defending.

[br][br]However, if you answer NO, and insist that God's highest, most supreme will is for all created men to be saved, you must then account for the fact that some men are not saved. To whom shall we give the credit for controverting God's highest, most supreme will?

[br][br]Which boils down to this: You must either preach an impotent God, or else acknowledge that He has a higher purpose than the salvation of every created man. In this way, we must all account for evil. Which way do you want to go with it?
Charles Long  Monday, July 16, 2007 2:59 am
John Barry,

[br][br]Let's look at the potential ludicrousness of your position. I mean, fair's fair, and equal standards for both parties and all, right?

[br][br]I seem to recall having asked you this question before (if not, well, here it is for the first time): Is there anything that God wants more than for all created men to be saved?

[br][br]If you answer YES, then what is that thing? If I have you pegged, you would answer answer YES, and say that God wants man to have free will. Which could easily be reworded: "God would rather free us from Him than free us from hell." It seems that this is the position you're defending.

[br][br]However, if you answer NO, and insist that God's highest, most supreme will is for all created men to be saved, you must then account for the fact that some men are not saved. To whom shall we give the credit for controverting God's highest, most supreme will?

[br][br]Which boils down to this: You must either preach an impotent God, or else acknowledge that He has a higher purpose than the salvation of every created man. In this way, we must all account for evil. Which way do you want to go with it?
Kyle S.  Monday, July 16, 2007 3:18 am
John,


You seem confused. Maybe an example will help. The evil that Joseph's brothers did him, "God meant it for good." He had really good reasons for knowingly and intentionally ordering things in such away that they would do the evil things they did.


Anyway, it has to be that on your view God knowingly and intentionally ordered things in such a way that evil is ensured so long as he permits things to play out, that is, unless he intervenes. On your view, why isn't God blameworthy for failing to intervene? Presumably, you think he has good reasons. Maybe to preserve the good of human freedom? Whatever it is, does this blur the distinction between good and evil?

John Barry  Monday, July 16, 2007 4:06 am
Kyle, I hesitate to build a doctrine on a literal reading of Joseph's words to his brothers. In Gen 45:5, Joseph tells his brothers, "And now do not be distressed or angry with yourselves because you sold me here, for God sent me before you to preserve life." Am I then to have no remorse when I sin because I know that God is ensuring that I sin for good reasons?
John Barry  Monday, July 16, 2007 4:31 am
LongShot, God *does* desire all men to be saved. If they are not, it is not owing to any impotence in God. God is as powerful as love.

In framing up our theology, we (consciously or unconsciously) *rank* God's "attributes". The Calvinist (speaking generally) places God's omnipotence and omniscience at the top. I place God's love and justice at the top. I do this because I rate *moral qualities* higher than *nonmoral*. Love and justice are moral qualities. Power and knowledge are not.

Jane Dunsworth  Monday, July 16, 2007 4:50 am
John, you are really not to engage in fruitless self-condemnation over things you've clearly repented of, particularly if you realize the ultimate result of them was not harm, but by God's grace, good. You can Joseph's words quite literally if you keep them in the context of the entire conversation in which they occur.
Kyle S.  Monday, July 16, 2007 4:56 am
John, I wasn't building up a doctrine. You've missed what the example was supposed to show, which was just that, supposing God can have good reasons that weigh in favor of his knowingly and intentionally ordering things in such a way that something evil happens, this doesn't imply that the something evil isn't evil.


Or, if it does, then your view has the same implication and likewise blurs the distinction between good and evil. How then could you point to this as a special problem for Calvin's?

Charles Long  Monday, July 16, 2007 5:10 am
John Barry,

[br][br]I think you missed my point. I know God desires for all men to come to repentence. In addition, He is not willing that any should perish. But by your math, those are His highest wills. Which leaves you having to account for why God's highest will does not come to pass. Is it because He is not strong enough, or is it because you are mistaken about what His highest will is?

[br][br]Re: your attribute ranking -- You placed love and justice at the top. The obvious problem here is that salvation is a direct function of both love and justice (it was through love that Christ fulfilled the righteous requirements of the law). So why aren't ALL men saved by God's highest wills of love and justice? See, by your math, either love and justice are NOT at the top, or else they are but God still can't quite cut it (as evidenced by the fact that some men are not saved). Consider that perhaps they are at the top and God accomplishes something else through them, something which He values higher than the salvation of every created man.

[br][br]Again, which way do you want to go with this? (And please explain what "God is as powerful as love" is supposed to mean. It sounds as if you believe love is some over-arching objective moral entity to which God must conform).
John Barry  Monday, July 16, 2007 5:59 am
LongShot, I could very well be mistaken about what God's highest will is. But I have already said that if all are not saved, it is not owing to a lack of strength on God's part. Love does not coerce. It sounds to me that you equate this with weakness. Weakness isn't one of the characteristics of love. If God is constrained by love, do you then say He is weak? When you say that some men not being saved is evidence of God not being able to quite cut it, what do you mean?

When I say God is as powerful as love, I mean that His power is constrained by His love. I believe God is obligated to love His neighbor as Himself. This obligation is not "over" God, or "outside of" God. It is an uncreated obligation in some sense within the Trinity. If God were unitary, having no neighbor, such obligation would, of course, not exist.

Bill Harris  Monday, July 16, 2007 6:09 am
"Love does not coerce"? Paul on the road to Damascus was God's pleading? Come on John. "God is obligated to love His neighbor as Himself". I guess He owes Pharoah an apology. John I used to feel like you until I started understanding the doctrines of grace. Blessings
Bill Harris  Monday, July 16, 2007 6:47 am
Just checking
Bill Harris  Monday, July 16, 2007 6:48 am
Still checking
Charles Long  Monday, July 16, 2007 8:16 am
John Barry,

[br][br]The fact that some men are lost is only a sign of God's weakness if God has declared universal salvation as His primary purpose. Apparently, you and I both agree that God wants something more than He wants for all created men to be saved. I'm a little unclear on this, but it seems you've identified that thing as love.

[br][br]Now this puts you in a curious spot, John, because you're saying that God's love is the reason that some men remain lost. God gives them over to sin as an act of love. Or, to put it in a way you might take easier, God allows them to be given overas an act of love. Which implies that God would have to hate men in order to compel them from death unto life (or sickness to health -- however you wanna say it).

[br][br]Perhaps you would be willing to model the non-coercive love of God for your small children. Try pleading the unwitting 2-yr-old out from in front of an oncoming bus. Don't worry -- if his heart is right, he'll move.

[br][br](At least you've acknowledged though that God wants something more than for every created man to be saved. Good. I assume this means you won't be dropping any more anti-Calvinism bombs out of 2 Peter 3:9.)
Kyle S.  Monday, July 16, 2007 2:14 pm
Everyone -- John, but also Bill and LongShot -- should stop assuming that if Calvinism is true, then God is necessarily coercive. Pastor Wilson's example already addressed this. It's just as much a confusion as saying that Shakespeare coerced Macbeth.
John Barry  Monday, July 16, 2007 2:21 pm
"The fact that some men are lost is only a sign of God's weakness if God has declared universal salvation as His *primary* purpose."

How so? How is it weakness in God if He loves to the fullest and yet some are lost, refusing His love?

It's not that God wants *love* more than He wants all created men to be saved. It's simply that He is constrained by the *nature* of love--by what it is, and what it isn't.

"...you're saying that God's love is the reason that some men remain lost."

No. Some men remain lost because they refuse to love God. There is nothing lacking in God's love. God gives people over to sin, in love, with a view to their repentance and believing Him.

"Which implies that God would have to hate men in order to compel them from death unto life...."

This doesn't follow at all. God continues to love those He gives over to sin to bring them from death to life.

"Perhaps you would be willing to model the non-coercive love of God for your small children."

Perhaps you would be willing to model the *coercive* love of God to your wife?

Even though the angel took Lot by the hand, he could have resisted God's loving deliverance--as his wife, in fact, did.

Finally, I reserve the right to drop an occasional anti-Calvinism bomb out of 2 Peter 3:9 (or any of a multitude of other texts in the arsenal of the Bible.

John Barry  Monday, July 16, 2007 2:32 pm
"Pastor Wilson's example already addressed this. It's just as much a confusion as saying that Shakespeare coerced Macbeth."

Kyle, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. The meaning of Douglas's example eluded me. If you (or he) care to explain it, I have ears to hear.

Kyle S.  Monday, July 16, 2007 3:37 pm
John, maybe there's a good case for thinking that Lady Macbeth coerced Macbeth with respect to his murders, but it would be just odd to think that Shakespeare did. It would make me think you don't know what "coerced" means.


Look, there are things that have to be true about an action in order for it rightly to count as coerced by someone. None of Macbeth's actions are such that they could count as having been coerced by Shakespeare. In the same way, none of my actions are such that they could count as having been coerced by God.

Charles Long  Monday, July 16, 2007 6:10 pm
John Barry,

[br][br]Where can I go to read about your concept of love, and how God is constrained by it, which constraint keeps him from compelling men from death unto life? I mean, assuming you could conceive of the perfect magic-bullet love, arranged just so, which allowed you to make sense of all things theological outside of the Calvinistic paradigm, where can I read about that kind of love outside of your blog comments?

[br][br]John, you are being very slippery. Our salvation is a function of God's love -- "God so loved the world....everlasting life." Now you claim on the one hand that God wants for every created man to be saved. But when I ask you why some men are lost, your answer is that God is constrained by love. The problem here is that, by your math, love is both the reason men are saved and the reason men are not. And since, as you said, love is one of the eternal attributes of God, you are left with the conclusion that God's attributes are responsible for both saving men and refusing to save men. The minute you insist on having it both ways, you become a Calvinist.
John Barry  Monday, July 16, 2007 11:33 pm
Kyle,

Of course none of Macbeth's actions are coerced. Macbeth is a fictional character. Are you?

It is interesting to me that Douglas uses the analogy of a playwright and characters in a play to address the "problem of evil". I am not able to see how the consistent Calvinist, who cares to reason things out, avoids the conclusion that he or she is simply an extension of the playwright, or a fictional character.

John Barry  Monday, July 16, 2007 11:55 pm
LongShot,

God's unfathomable love for men and women, and their rejection of it is a theme woven throughout the Bible. See Isaiah 5 and 11 for a couple of vivid pictures of this.

"... you are left with the conclusion that God's attributes are responsible for both saving men and refusing to save men. The minute you insist on having it both ways, you become a Calvinist."

I don't believe that God's attributes are *solely* responsible if a man is not saved. The man, in his refusal to love God, is also responsible.

Gene  Tuesday, July 17, 2007 8:37 am
Sorry, John, but are still missing the point. Paul's argument is nonsense if he is not saying that God is monergistic in his dealings with us. The Pharoah had his heart hardened and was condemned for having a hard heart. God did the hardening and God condemned the hardness. That is Paul's argument. You can say that you don't agree, but you are disagreeing with Paul, not some skinny little Calvinists. God Bless,
Kyle S.  Tuesday, July 17, 2007 10:33 am
"Of course none of Macbeth's actions are coerced. Macbeth is a fictional character."


John, this is obviously mistaken. I actually think Macbeth's actions were coerced. Just not by Shakespeare. Some of Macbeth's actions were such that they could count as having been coerced by Lady Macbeth. Similarly, some of my actions have been such that they count as having been coerced by others (like when I pay taxes), but just not by God. You seem to think of "coerced" and "predestined" or "caused" as synonymous. This makes me think you don't have a good grip on what has to be true about an action in order for it rightly to count as coerced by someone.


"It is interesting to me that Douglas uses the analogy of a playwright and characters in a play to address the "problem of evil"."


But I didn't do that. I used the analogy to show that God doesn't coerce. I used the exceeding goodness of God bringing about a world that contains the incarnation, atonement, and resurrection to address the problem of evil. Remember? You mistakenly thought this implied that evil actions aren't really evil.

Charles Long  Tuesday, July 17, 2007 4:16 pm
John Barry,

[br][br]You wrote: "I don't believe that God's attributes are *solely* responsible if a man is not saved."

[br][br]Now hold on one cotton pickin' minute -- don't forget where we are in the conversation. I asked you if God wanted something more than for all created men to be saved. You responded by saying that God does want all men to be saved, but that His love is a higher attribute than His omnipotence. Yes, you actually "ranked" God's attributes, placing His love above His omnipotence. But here's the kicker, John -- You did this in order to explain why He doesn't compel men to come to Him. You placed God's attribute of love higher than His attribute of omnipotence, in order to argue that God's refusal to save every man monergistically isn't an indication of His weakness. In doing this, you placed the blame for the loss of men's souls squarely on the shoulders of God's attributes. Basically, you're saying that while God could save every man monergistcally, His attribute of love prevents that from happening. This was your argument.

[br][br]But now... (continued...)
Charles Long  Tuesday, July 17, 2007 4:26 pm
...But now, you're saying that God's attributes are NOT solely responsible for the loss of man's souls. You said: "The man, in his refusal to love God, is also responsible." But wait -- the question here is not whether man got himself into the sin problem. We all agree on that. Rather, the question is why, after man has sinned, doesn't God come save the day monergistically? You have already answered this question once by saying that God's attribute of love trumps His ability to monergistically save, so that out of love He will allow the unrepentant sinner to roast in hell rather than snatch him from the fire. You cannot then turn around and say that man is responsible for God's decision to allow the man to remain lost. Man was responsible for sinning in the first place, but man does not keep God from acting monergistically -- the only thing that keeps God from acting monergistically, says you, is His attributes. Man did not infuse those attributes into Him, so man cannot be blamed for the fact that God doesn't monergistically save. Now man may have some say in whether God can work SYNergistically, but that was never the question. Your argument as applied to MONergism is nonsensical.
John Barry  Wednesday, July 18, 2007 12:28 am
LongShot,

God doesn't refuse to save. He's *eager* to save.

"In doing this, you placed the blame for the loss of men's souls squarely on the shoulders of God's attributes."

I didn't think I was placing blame anywhere. The nature of love is what it is. Can something be reasonably blamed for its nature?

"Basically, you're saying that while God could save every man monergistcally, His attribute of love prevents that from happening."

This is close to what I am saying. For God to save monergistically, it seems to me the nature of love would have to be different, or the nature of man.

"You cannot then turn around and say that man is responsible for God's decision to allow the man to remain lost."

Yes I can. I did so earlier this morning. I repeated "man is responsible for God's decision..." while turning around until I was dizzy. But I still didn't believe it.

"Your argument as applied to MONergism is nonsensical."

That could well be. I have had in view *synergism* all along. God loves to the fullest; it may be that not all are won over thereby. This is distinct from "power" or "weakness". God is *reconciling* the world to Himself. To the extent this involves creatures made in God's image, this is synergistic by definition.

By the bye, Allah is *monergistic*; our God is *trinergistic*.

John Barry  Wednesday, July 18, 2007 1:37 am
Gene,

You say, "Paul's argument is nonsense if he is not saying that God is monergistic in his dealings with us."

God *is* monergistic, or rather trinergistic, in some of His dealings with us: Creation and the Atonement come readily to my mind. But our salvation--God's reconciling sinners to Himself--is synergistic by definition.

"The Pharoah had his heart hardened and was condemned for having a hard heart. God did the hardening and God condemned the hardness."

Do you know the mechanism by which God hardened Pharaoh's heart? Or how do you know God's hardening Pharaoh's heart was not, itself, in part, the condemnation?

Gene, if God is monergistic in His dealings with us, how do you understand Rom 9:9-11, 11:19-23, for example?

Gene  Wednesday, July 18, 2007 3:01 am
John:

I have to ask you how you understand Rom 9:9-11. From my perspective, God says he chose Jacob over Esau without regard to their actions. That is, by definition, monergism. Rom. 11:19 - 23 sounds pretty darn monergistic to me as well. Grafting in and pruning out are done on the basis of faith. Where does the faith come from?

God says he hardened Pharoah's heart (Ex. 7:3) so I don't need to understand the mechanism whereby that happens.

You certainly seem to be agreeing with Paul's adversaries that he got the argument wrong. If that is case, you don't need to go through convulsions to make Paul say the opposite of what is written in Romans. Just say that you think Paul got it wrong. You'll have lots of company. God Bless,

Gene  Wednesday, July 18, 2007 3:11 am
John, this is the reason the "T" comes before "U" in TULIP. Deal with Total Depravity before you try Unconditional Election. It just doesn't work the other way around! God Bless,
John Barry  Wednesday, July 18, 2007 3:25 am
Gene, I meant Rom *10*:9-11. I agree tht God acted monergistically in calling Jacob, just as He did in calling Abraham--and in calling all.

"Where does the faith come from?"

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. The gospel is preached, heard, and believed (or not).

Even if you claim, as Douglas does, that faith is a "unilateral" gift of God, it still must be *received*. There is a giver and a receiver. The synergy is inescapable.

Gene  Wednesday, July 18, 2007 3:32 am
John:

Context, context, context!

Romans 10 speaks about the Jews thinking that righteousness would come through their own actions, rather than from God. Read back from the end of chapter 9 and see the context Paul set up. It is all part of his argument that God chooses without regard to our works. Choosing comes first, then repentance on man's part. Man is dead (that's what Genesis 3 and Romans 3 are all about) and cannot respond unless God does something first. That is monergism: God chooses. Of course after that men can react. Dead men do not reach for life rings, they float face down in the water.

Who can resist God? Get the Total Depravity part down, then deal with Election. God Bless,

John Barry  Wednesday, July 18, 2007 3:49 am
Gene,

Can the dead not *hear* while they are floating face down in the water (cf John 5:25)?

Gene  Wednesday, July 18, 2007 3:56 am
John, they can only hear if someone makes them undead. Dead is dead, man. If God had wanted to tell us we were really, really sick in our sins, he would have said so. God Bless,
Gene  Wednesday, July 18, 2007 4:12 am
John,

Sorry I didn't deal with your passage from John. Two things are going on here, Jesus says "Now" the "dead" (think Genesis 3, Romans 3 and Ephesians 2:1) will hear his voice and some will live. But, "the hour is coming" (i.e. it is not "now") that all in the graves will hear and come out. Jesus called the first part the Regeneration. We call the second part the Final Judgment. God Bless,

John Barry  Wednesday, July 18, 2007 4:12 am
No, Gene. They hear *and then live*. Read what Jesus says again.

God, through Paul, *does* tell us that we are weak in our sins. And slaves to law and sin.

It seems that some assign undue strength to the metaphor of "dead in sin" in Scripture, to the exclusion of other metaphors picturing our condition without Christ.

You say "Dead is *dead*, man." So are you *dead to* sin?

Gene  Wednesday, July 18, 2007 4:37 am
John, we were weak in our sin so we could not do what the law required. Weakness and slavery end up with the same effect as death, so I don't think you're getting much by clinging to them. This is why semipelagians have such a hard time with Romans, Galatians and Ephesians.

At any rate, having been baptized in faith, I am in Christ, and as everyone knows, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. So from the perspective of Genesis 3, Romans 3 and Ephesians 2, I am dead to sin and alive to Christ. How about you? God Bless,

Charles Long  Wednesday, July 18, 2007 4:41 am
John Barry,

[br][br]You are talking in circles. But I'll go around with you again. You wrote: "God doesn't refuse to save. He's *eager* to save."

[br][br]So, John, exactly how eager is He? Apparently, not eager enough to save everyone monergistically, according to your view. He's eager, you say, but not eager enough to affect man's will. He's eager, you say, but He'd rather let men choose death and fry in hell than intervene to save them monergistically. Which means that however eager He is that all men be saved, He's more eager to allow some men to go to hell.

[br][br]If He is not more eager to allow some men to go to hell, then we have to account for why they do. If God is more eager to save than to do anything else, then He will save, period. Unless, of course, He can't.

[br][br](continued....)

Charles Long  Wednesday, July 18, 2007 4:43 am
(....continued)

[br][br]You have argued that although God is supremely eager to save, He doesn't save universally & monergistically because He loves more supremely. Which means, of course, that He is NOT supremely eager to save -- rather, He is supremely eager to love, your argument goes, and only secondarily eager to save.

[br][br]The problem with your theory though is that salvation is a function of love, which means your distinction between salvation and love is a false one. Love brings salvation, it does not displace it.

[br][br]But setting that aside -- if, as you say, God's attribute of love is what prevents Him from monergistically & universally saving (and you DID say that), then it is God's attributes alone that are to blame for the fact that not all men are saved. If God is able to monergistically save every single man but sovereignly chooses not to, then He can't blame that choice on anyone else. Yes, man is guilty of sin and objectively deserves death. But God could monergistically, universally save anyway. It's not man's fault that God doesn't make the choice to universally, monergistically save.
Charles Long  Wednesday, July 18, 2007 5:00 am
John, here's my point. I believe that God is able to do anything He wants to do (which, BTW, is exceeding abundantly above anything you or I could conceive of). So if God refrains from an action, it is because He wants to refrain, not because He can't do otherwise.

[br][br]God has the power to monergistically save every man. But He does not do this, which forces us to the conclusion that He doesn't supremely want to. Oh, yes, on some level He does want to, but He wants something else more, which is why he does the something-else instead.

[br][br]If you believe God's most supreme will is something that will not come to pass, then you are worshiping an impotent God. How do you know He can keep His promises to you? He can't get His own way. He can't even achieve His most supreme will. So even if God's most supreme will is to keep His promise to John Barry, what assurance do you have that the promise will be kept?
John Barry  Wednesday, July 18, 2007 5:23 am
LongShot,

I find talking in circles less strenuous than going around in them.

"... rather, He is supremely eager to love, your argument goes, and only secondarily eager to save."

I wouldn't put it this way. I would say God loves supremely and is supremely eager to save. His eagerness to save is a manifestation of His love.

You say, "Love brings salvation, it does not displace it."

I say, love *seeks* salvation, but may not, in every case, save.

"If God is more eager to save than to do anything else, then He will save, period. Unless, of course, He can't."

Again, I don't believe God can reconcile *man* to Himself monergistically--given the nature of love and of man. If God were to "monergistically reconcile", it would involve something other than man and something other than love.

Gene  Wednesday, July 18, 2007 6:02 am
John, a good part of the problem in all of this is your understanding of man and your efforts to protect his dignity in his free will. Dead, weak slaves tend to lack dignity and can't really choose all that much, much less to be able answer back to God. Lazarus came out when he was called, not when he decided to hear. God Bless,
John Barry  Wednesday, July 18, 2007 6:16 am
LongShot,

We both contemplate God's handiwork in creation. We share the same textual evidence that God is able to keep His promises: the Bible. In addition, we each have our own subjective experience of God's working in us and in those around us.

God's creation boggles my mind. In the Bible, I see God keeping all His promises to others. This gives me confidence that He is able to keep His promises to me. And I see God answering prayers, giving grace, and sanctifying me.

When I read the Bible, I don't see everything going just the way God wants. But I see a God who abounds in steadfast love, who judges justly, who makes Atonement for the sins of the world, who raises the dead, who gives His Holy Spirit.

I offer myself willingly to this God, his "impotence" notwithstanding.

Charles Long  Wednesday, July 18, 2007 6:55 am
John,

[br][br]Well now we've come down to the brass tacks. On two counts:

1) You wrote: [/i]"When I read the Bible, I don't see everything going just the way God wants."[/i] And this is because you won't take Romans 9 or John 6 for what they say. If you believed the words in the bible, you'd see clearly that everything IS going, and always HAS gone, and always WILL go exactly as God wanted. Tell me -- who decides which things will go God's way and which things won't? In other words, you are confident that God will keep His promises to you, even while you proclaim things don't always go His way. Who made "promise keeping" immune to the chance of failure?

2) (And this is by far the worst, IMHO) You wrote: "I offer myself willingly to this God, his "impotence" notwithstanding."

[br][br]John, I really don't even know what to say about this. But I'm pretty sure it ends the conversation. I mean, once you go and concede that you willingly worship an impotent god, you place yourself in the camp of men like Peter Hughes, Christopher Hitchens, et al. Now I will say you have the advantage in that you're at least honest about the impotence of your god. For whatever that's worth.
John Barry  Wednesday, July 18, 2007 7:44 am
LongShot,

"If you believed the words in the bible, you'd see clearly that everything IS going, and always HAS gone, and always WILL go exactly as God wanted."

This claim implies that you know what God thus wants. So what is it?

I think if we continue the conversation it will become evident that your god, though perhaps not lacking in raw power, lacks one or more moral qualities. I'm game if you are.

John Barry  Wednesday, July 18, 2007 7:53 am
Also, your claim that I cite in my post above sounds more like an a priori assumption you bring to the Bible than a conclusion reached after reading through the Bible several times.
Gene  Wednesday, July 18, 2007 9:06 am
John, you're still agreeing with Paul's rhetorical detractor. Does that not bother you? God Bless,
John Barry  Wednesday, July 18, 2007 9:48 am
Gene,

How so?