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Gun Ownership As Civic Virtue PDF Print E-mail
Culture and Politics - Politics
Written by Douglas Wilson   
Thursday, 03 January 2013 09:50

A few posts ago, I mentioned in passing that gun ownership was not a sin, not a vice, and was in fact a virtue. This generated a few questions, which I thought I ought to address in a separate post. So here goes.

The first issue concerns what is meant by "virtue." Do I mean to say that it is a sin not to own a gun? Well, I certainly do not mean that gun ownership should be added to the cardinal virtues of prudence, justice, temperance, or fortitude. Neither should it be ranked with the theological virtues of faith, hope, and love. By virtue I mean something else.

I want to say that gun ownership is a virtue in the same way that having and keeping a job is. Hard work is a virtue, but we have all met hard workers who are jerks. A man can hold down a job, and his family should respect him for it, but there is more to the virtuous life than that. Gun ownership is the same kind of thing. Taking one thing with another, a self-reliant populace will (generally speaking) be armed. It is a good thing. So it is not a sin to not have a gun, but it is a good thing if you do.

So what does the Bible teach about gun ownership? The subject could be discussed on two levels -- total pacifism would of course mean that gun ownership is out, for both cops and robbers. But someone could reject pacifism and still want to limit private ownership of armed means of defense. In what follows, I am going to assume the fallacy of utter pacifism, and just deal with those who believe in the need for weapons, but who want them largely out of private hands. I want to defend an apple pie approach -- a red-checked tablecloth, and a Winchester over the fireplace.

There are three basic arguments here. There is a theological error with those who would take our weapons away from us. Second, there is an exegetical error -- a failure to see that the Bible makes explicit room for self-defense. And third, nature itself teaches us that self-defense is every creature's prerogative. Let's take them in order.

First, the perennial temptation we face as a race of responsibility-evaders is that of blaming our sin on inanimate objects. We blame alcohol for drunkenness, computers for porn, cars for a frenetic lifestyle, gold for avarice, and guns for crime. But stuff doesn't make us sin -- sin seeks out stuff to sin with, and sin will always find it. When Cain murdered his brother, he was not hindered by the absence of guns. The material for sinning is always ready to hand, and a central part of our sin is pointing away from ourselves. Every politician calling for gun control is (in principle) a Pelagian heretic.

Second, we find the exegetical considerations. In the Old Testament, if a porch climber were coming through your house at night, an Israelite had every right to blow him back down the staircase. "If a thief is found breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no bloodguilt for him" (Ex 22:2, ESV). In the aftermath of such an incident, when the jury refused to convict the home-owner, that refusal to convict would not have been because the jurors were all from Texas. They would all have been from Israel, all of them living under the law that God gave to Moses.

What about the New Testament?

"Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough" (Luke 22:36-38).

Let me first deal with the argument that Jesus was speaking ironically here. For those who don't like armed Christians, dealing with this passage by assuming ironic detachment is way too convenient. What my net don't catch ain't fish. And second, even assuming that Jesus meant something cryptic, the fact that two of the disciples were already packing (after three years of traveling with the original flower child Jesus) would seem to me to be kind of odd.

Jesus was not telling His disciples that the Great Commission will be fulfilled by means of the sword. This is far more pedestrian than that. He includes this comment along with requirements to now provide for themselves as they travel by taking a pack, and money, and a sword to defend yourselves against brigands.

Simply defending yourself against lawless violence is not a biblical problem at all. "Like a muddied spring or a polluted fountain is a righteous man who gives way before the wicked" (Prov. 25:26, ESV). Not giving way before the wicked is going to be a lot simpler if you are carrying.

There is also the matter of the militia, or the common defence. Gun control is something that tyrants always want.

"Now there was no smith found throughout all the land of Israel: for the Philistines said, Lest the Hebrews make them swords or spears: But all the Israelites went down to the Philistines, to sharpen every man his share, and his coulter, and his axe, and his mattock . . . So it came to pass in the day of battle, that there was neither sword nor spear found in the hand of any of the people that were with Saul and Jonathan: but with Saul and with Jonathan his son was there found" (1 Sam. 13:19-20,22-23).

When political rulers are eager to disarm the general populace, it is not paranoia to suspect that other issues are in play. When those political rulers are overbearing What power-grabber worth his salt wouldn't want strict gun control? What lover of liberty would ever consent to that as being a good idea?

And last, we have countless examples from the very nature of things that instruct us on the propriety of self-defense. And given the nature of the current technology, it is not possible to grant the right to self-defense without simultaneously granting the means to self-defense. You don't want to say that someone has the right to defend himself against a home invader, but that he may only do so by getting into the medicine chest in order to throw cotton balls at the intruder.

It is not the job of the police to defend us against any random crime in progress. There is no way to assign them that job without making it necessary for their presence to be constant and tyrannical. It is their job, obviously, in circumstances like a hostage stand-off, but for random robberies, muggings, attempted rape, etc. a far more effective deterrent would be a lot of concealed carry going on. Remember, for most crimes, when every second counts, the police are only minutes away.

Some might lament the lack of faith I am displaying in our elected officials. Doesn't our civilization depend on us learning how to centralize all the firepower? Someone might ask, don't you trust them? No, I don't -- in countless and very creative ways, they have shown themselves to be incapable of decent governance. Trust them with my guns? After what they have done with everything else? They are, taking one thing with another, poltroons, miscreants, malefactors, mountebanks, skunks, recreants, offenders, rascals, scamps, felons, evil-doers, and congressmen. I don't think I need to develop this any further.



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Matt H.  - More on Luke 22  Thursday, January 03, 2013 10:33 am
Doug,

Thank you for this explanation. I've long wondered your position on this as I've picked up hints here and there. I completely agree and it's encouraging to see it laid out this clearly.

How would you respond to those who would take Luke 22:36-38 not ironically, but with a limited scope? In other words, those who would interpret the instructions to the disciples as limited to just the time leading up to the crucifixion rather than applicable for all time.
Scott Salsman  Thursday, January 03, 2013 10:38 am
I agree. Well said, Mr. Wilson. However, I would counter the quotation of Proverbs 25:26 with that of Matthew 5:39--"Resist not evil." I was hoping you'd address that command. While I disagree with much of Tolstoy's philosophies, his pacifist arguments based on the Sermon on the Mount were very convincing, and I still grapple with them two years after hearing them.
katecho  Friday, January 04, 2013 3:04 am
I would address Matthew 5:39 "Resist not evil" by bringing other Scripture alongside to help interpret it:

Quote:
If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. - ROMANS 12:18-19


What is God's appointed means of wrath and vengeance? We find the answer in the very next chapter:

Quote:
Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. ... for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil. - ROMANS 13:1,4


So it seems that Jesus is instructing His disciples to leave plenty of room for God's appointed Providential means of justice and vengeance, rather than try to grasp and simply take all vengeance into their own hands. This doesn't directly bear on the topic of self-defense though, since that is not to be conducted in a punitive manner. Shooting a fleeing criminal in the back is not accepted as self-defense by the courts, even if that criminal is later sentenced to the death penalty. The magistrate bears God's sword for official punitive vengeance.
Matt H.  Thursday, January 03, 2013 10:54 am
With respect to arms as a means of preventing government tyranny, I've often wondered if the U.S. has been effectively disarmed already.

In a time when the government was armed chiefly with muskets or swords, citizens armed with muskets or swords could pose as a reasonable deterrent to the threat of government tyranny.

In our time, the government is armed with Apache helicopters, Predator drones and tanks. The people are armed with, at most, semiautomatic rifles. The military technology and armament has increased at such a pace while the citizen is left with arms more or less unchanged over the last 100 years.

Whether the government takes away the semiautomatic rifles or not seems largely irrelevant since the same government has armed itself with weapons that are so far superior and to which the citizen has no access.

Fighting an Apache helicopter with a semiautomatic rifle is about as effective as fighting it with nothing and a far cry from citizens with muskets taking on an army with muskets.

I'll admit the Russians (even the U.S.) in Afghanistan certainly proves primitive weapons might make a stand against the more modern, but I'm not sure that's a rule or an exception. One-hundred million Americans with rifles certainly poses more of a problem.

Now, since I probably implied that we ought to all be allowed to commute to work in fully-armed AH-64s, let the hand-wringing commence.
holmegm  - re:  Thursday, January 03, 2013 11:19 am
Matt H. wrote:
I'll admit the Russians (even the U.S.) in Afghanistan certainly proves primitive weapons might make a stand against the more modern, but I'm not sure that's a rule or an exception. One-hundred million Americans with rifles certainly poses more of a problem.


I was going to respond, but it appears that you have responded to yourself aptly :)

If the opponents who fight our military to a standstill get any more primitive, they will be using sharpened sticks (or perhaps box cutters).

Yet somehow confiscating all these American guns will be a snap ...
Matt H.  - re: re:  Thursday, January 03, 2013 11:29 am
Quote:
If the opponents who fight our military to a standstill get any more primitive, they will be using sharpened sticks (or perhaps box cutters).


They're actually better armed than your average U.S. citizen. Not a lot of RPGs, automatic rifles and mortars being sold in the suburbs.
holmegm  - re: re: re:  Thursday, January 03, 2013 11:44 am
Matt H. wrote:
They're actually better armed than your average U.S. citizen. Not a lot of RPGs, automatic rifles and mortars being sold in the suburbs.


Granted. Plenty of rifles and shotguns, though.

The point is, I see that argument a lot, and I don't think it's going to be that easy.

And if the Obamites do ever manage it, it will be their evil political will and having enough willing helpers, not the technology per se, that enable it to succeed, IMHO.
Jonathan  Thursday, January 03, 2013 12:09 pm
Pastor Wilson, I think your interpretation of Luke 22:36-38 is quite a bit off. As I've pointed out before on this site:

1) Jesus is quoting Isaiah 53:12. That's the suffering servant passage, about the lamb being led to slaughter and all that. It's pretty clear that the lamb in question is not fighting back. The fact that Jesus is quoting scripture is quite important context.

2) Jesus tells them "he will be numbered among the transgressors" in order to fulfill that prophecy. Personally, the way I understand the sword reference is that he's making a colorful metaphor for division, just as he did in Matthew 10:34-39. To deny that he was using the sword as a metaphor in Matthew 10 is a losing argument, since the parallel passage in Luke 12:49-53 explicitly says "division" instead, showing that these were interchangeable for Jesus. Jesus is telling them that division is coming, Isaiah is being fulfilled, they're going to be labeled as transgressors and he's a sheep led to the slaughter. Jesus had used "sword" as a metaphor for division before, but he had never told the disciples to literally pack swords before. And neither he nor anyone else in the New Testament has said that the disciples were afraid of brigands.

3) Jesus responds to the disciples with a dismissive "That is enough" or "Enough of that" - using the same phrase used by the Septuagint in Deuteronomy 3:26, where the Lord is clearly angry and "Enough of that" is clearly exactly what he meant and how it's translated into English.

4) If Jesus actually meant his words as a literal command, then his follow-up phrase makes no sense. If Jesus is being literal, then he says that EVERYONE without a sword should buy one. But no disciples buy swords - two already have them, and Jesus ends it right there. Jesus knew they had swords the whole time...so why would he command the ones without swords to buy them, then immediately tell them that no one actually has to buy anything because two swords is enough?

5) In what world would two swords be enough for 13+ men who often split up into groups as small as two to defend themselves against brigands? Just that night, the disciples are split up while Jesus is praying, split up after he is arrested, and split up during and after his trial. So how could two swords be enough for the different split-up groups? Wouldn't violent brigands still overpower them easily, especially the ones that happened not to be with the two guys who have swords?

6) Jesus makes this whole statement only hours before he is arrested. That also happens to be the only moment in which swords are used by the disciples in the entire New Testament. What does Jesus say to their use? He shouts, “No more of this!” and immediately healed the servant in Luke 22:50-51. Hmmm, doesn't "No more of this!" remind you of "Enough of this!" And isn't it clear that he's rejecting the use of the sword? To be even more clear John and Matthew record that Jesus told that disciple to “put your sword into its sheath,” and Matthew adds Jesus saying, “For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.” Remember, this is just HOURS after Jesus made the statement that Pastor Wilson takes as a command to use swords. I don't see how this incident alone doesn't clearly rebuke his interpretation.

7) Every single other time Jesus is recorded as using the word "sword" in the Gospels, he either uses it as a metaphor or speaks negatively of their use. No exceptions. One interpretation is in line with this pattern. The other one is at distinct odds with it. Which interpretation is more likely?

8. The disciples misunderstand Jesus all the time. There's quite a good pattern for that in the Gospels. It's not at all surprising that the disciples misunderstand him here. Pastor Wilson thinks it's odd that a couple of the disciples hadn't figured out Jesus's position on killing people with swords three years into his ministry. But there was a LOT that the disciples still hadn't figured out about Jesus even at that point, as evidenced by their behavior before, during, and after the crucifixion. They still didn't understand that Jesus was going to go to his death, was not going to become a worldly king, did not want them to fight back when he was arrested because his kingdom is not a worldly one. I don't see why the fact that the disciples didn't get the stuff about violence yet (especially since there's no indication that a disciple had ever used violence in Jesus's presence before this moment) shows anything that we didn't already know about them.

9) Nowhere in Acts, or in any of the letters of Paul, James, John, Peter, or Jude, is the use of the sword by disciples ever mentioned. I think Luke included it because it shows how the disciples' misplaced expectations for Jesus's messiahship stayed with them almost until his death. N.T. Wright expertly shows how Jesus defied the Jews' expectations for Messiah who leads a revolution against the Romans. This is yet one more demonstration of that. If Pastor Wilson's interpretation was correct, and Luke was really putting this verse in here to show that Jesus wanted all the disciples to pack weapons in order to defend themselves violently, then wouldn't Luke have shown just ONE positive example of them doing so somewhere in his Gospel or Acts? Instead, he shows one example, which Jesus immediately condemns, and that's it. That doesn't sound like a case at all to me.

10) Along with all the specific evidence against that interpretation, it doesn't fit in with the rest of Luke or the Gospels. Jesus clearly says that his Kingdom is not a worldly Kingdom that his disciples should fight for, all who live by the sword will die by the sword, turn the other cheek, love your enemy, pray for your persecutors, don't resist them, and on and on. Pastor Wilson's interpretation is wrong in the small context and wrong in the big context. It just doesn't fit Jesus in any way.
Jonathan  Thursday, January 03, 2013 12:17 pm
p.s. - in case it's unclear, I'm not arguing that Jesus ever commanded anyone not to carry swords (or guns, for that matter). I don't think there's any evidence for that in the Bible. There are lots of us who are gun owners and hunters who still believe that it is wrong for us to ever kill another human being with a gun. Target practice, sport shooting, and hunting are still legitimate uses of a gun. Personally, I haven't carried a sword much, so I'm not sure if they had any non-killing use or not, but I don't see where Jesus ever addressed that. As Pastor Wilson points out, Jesus wouldn't have focused on the inanimate object, he would have focused on the sin, so carrying the inanimate object around isn't the issue.
Matthew N. Petersen  Thursday, January 03, 2013 12:39 pm
Quote:
Every politician calling for gun control is (in principle) a Pelagian heretic.
Using the same argument, would you say that a pastor who counsels a young man to not have internet access at home is (in principle) a Pelagian heretic?
Quote:
Gun control is something that tyrants always want.
As best as I can make out, you're asserting the consequent.
Quote:
So it is not a sin to not have a gun, but it is a good thing if you do.
You give a whole bunch of arguments that, without government intervention, gun ownership and self-defense is permissible. But I don't see any arguments for your thesis, that gun ownership is good. Indeed, why can't I say, like you do in other areas, "God doesn't care if you own guns."?
holmegm  - re:  Thursday, January 03, 2013 4:25 pm
Matthew N. Petersen wrote:
But I don't see any arguments for your thesis, that gun ownership is good.


When received with thankfulness and used in accordance with a godly life, things are good. Food is good. Music is good. The ability to protect yourself, your family, and your neighbors, is good. A God-given good.
Matthew N. Petersen  Thursday, January 03, 2013 9:43 pm
Sure, as is playing Dungeons and Dragons. But no one says playing Dungeons and Dragons is a virtue.

And, if a man is seeking a wife, not holding a job is a knock against him. If gun ownership is a virtue like holding a job is, then my father-in-law should have asked me what guns I owned, and when I answered that I own none, and intend to own none, it should have been a knock against me. (Which is absurd.)

Anyway, driving 90 mph is good if done with thanksgiving, but no one objects if the magistrate decides it is not prudent to allow people to drive that fast, and restricts their freedom to drive, nor do they describe it as a virtue.
Phil Jones  Friday, January 04, 2013 8:29 am
If you don't intend to protect your family yourself then get a big dog and have it trained by an expert and when the time comes the dog can be a substitute for your manhood. Although if the intruder has a gun the dog will probably die in the effort, although bravely.
katecho  Friday, January 04, 2013 2:24 am
Matthew N. Petersen wrote:
Quote:
Doug Wilson wrote:
Quote:
Every politician calling for gun control is (in principle) a Pelagian heretic.

Using the same argument, would you say that a pastor who counsels a young man to not have internet access at home is (in principle) a Pelagian heretic?

Matthew is constructing a fallacy by suggesting that the banning of guns, without regard for any knowledge of the gun owners involved, is equivalent to pastoral prohibition of internet access to a particular young man whose struggles the pastor is quite familiar with.

Not everyone mishandles God's gifts in a punishable manner. There are special consequences for those who fail to handle guns correctly. There are special consequences for those who fail to handle alcohol correctly, or the internet correctly, etc, etc. Doug isn't arguing against any of that at all. Doug isn't even arguing against appropriate maturity requirements before partaking of such gifts. Rather Doug is arguing against those who refuse to distinguish the mature from the immature, and the civically guilty from the civically innocent. The one banning God's gifts and freedoms without regard for the maturity or civic innocence of the one partaking of them, as if there was something evil in the gift itself, that is the heretic.
katecho  Friday, January 04, 2013 2:41 am
Matthew N. Petersen wrote:
Quote:
And, if a man is seeking a wife, not holding a job is a knock against him. If gun ownership is a virtue like holding a job is, then my father-in-law should have asked me what guns I owned, and when I answered that I own none, and intend to own none, it should have been a knock against me. (Which is absurd.)

If a man is seeking a wife, not being willing or able to protect her is a knock against him. Since providing protection for one's family is a masculine virtue (like holding a job is), then Matthew's father-in-law would have been prudent to ask Matthew how he intended to fulfill that duty. If Matthew answered that he had no means to protect his bride, and had no intention of protecting her, it should have been a knock against him.

What absurdity? Perhaps Matthew is simply objecting to the widespread use of a gun to represent the principle. There are other more or less legitimate and virtuous ways of providing for the safety of one's family. The taser, mace, stun gun, flash grenade, rocket launcher, frying pan, dead bolt, air bag, helmet, sword, etc. When we talk about the virtue and duty of protecting liberty, then we may have to get into the more involved discussion of the right tools for the job.
Jacob Schroeder  - re:  Friday, January 04, 2013 6:21 am
Matthew N. Petersen wrote:
Quote:
Every politician calling for gun control is (in principle) a Pelagian heretic.
Using the same argument, would you say that a pastor who counsels a young man to not have internet access at home is (in principle) a Pelagian heretic?

Matthew, as has been pointed out, those are two totally different scenarios. One primary difference is that the tool of the pastor is counsel, whereas the tool of the politician is legislation. Going with the example you used, this is the difference between a man who struggles with a porn addiction removing some temptation in a fight for purity, versus a government outlawing all public use of the internet because pornographers have exploited it. It is the latter that Doug is dealing with, not the former. Don't confuse the teetotaller with the Prohibitionist congressman.
Matt H.  - re:  Friday, January 04, 2013 6:36 am
Matthew N. Petersen wrote:
And, if a man is seeking a wife, not holding a job is a knock against him. If gun ownership is a virtue like holding a job is, then my father-in-law should have asked me what guns I owned, and when I answered that I own none, and intend to own none, it should have been a knock against me. (Which is absurd.)


As katecho pointed out, it's not even a little bit absurd. Holding a job is a virtue because it's an effective means of obeying the Biblical command to provide for a wife. Owning a gun is a virtue because it's an effective means of obeying the Biblical command to protect a wife. That was really the whole point of Wilson's post. If protection and self-defense are virtues, effective means of accomplishing that are also virtuous.

When a young man comes to me with an interest in one of my daughters, I fully intend to ask him both how he plans to provide and protect. If the answer to "How will you protect her?" is "I won't bother," my answer will be "Thanks for playing, there's the door." If he thinks I'm absurd to say that, I'll usher him to the door with even greater haste.

If his response is "I intend to protect her with my fists because I'm a 10th-degree black belt in [insert martial art]" then we can have a friendly discussion about the most effective means of protection. Maybe he can prove to me that his fists, a bat, a crossbow, etc. are as effective or more effective than a gun, though I doubt it. I'd disagree, but at least he's on the right track in terms of the principle of protection, we're just disagreeing over the effectiveness of various means. Some means might be so ineffective (throwing cotton balls, asking nicely) that it would be a deal breaker. Some means might be effective (machete) but could definitely be improved upon.

If I ask him how he plans to provide for her and his response is "My substantial trust fund" or "My passive income from the significant real estate holdings my Dad gave me" then at least he's prepared to provide though maybe not in the classic sense of "having a job." For most of us, the answer is going to be "with a job." If his response is that he doesn't have a job and never intends to get one, or that he plans to support her through the manufacture and sale of magic beans, we'll be on our way to the front door.

The principle needs to be met and obeyed. There are a variety of ways to get there, some more effective than others.
Matt H.  - re:  Friday, January 04, 2013 6:41 am
Matthew N. Petersen wrote:
Using the same argument, would you say that a pastor who counsels a young man to not have internet access at home is (in principle) a Pelagian heretic?


Counseling? No. You think the government is "counseling" us to not own guns?

If said pastor issues a churchwide edict banning internet access, marches into the young man's house and forcibly removes the cabling and then fines him on the way out, yes he is (in principle) a Pelagian heretic.
Phil Jones  Friday, January 04, 2013 8:19 am
Bravo, Huzzah, Cheers, Oops, sorry, I mean Amen!
Jonathan  Friday, January 04, 2013 9:36 am
A lot of personal opinions about the "virtue" argument, very little about the actual New Testament basis for the virtue of gun ownership.

I thought I would at least get a little bit of helpful discussion on the Luke passage that Pastor Wilson tried to use to support his position.
Matt H.  - re:  Friday, January 04, 2013 10:19 am
Jonathan wrote:
A lot of personal opinions about the "virtue" argument, very little about the actual New Testament basis for the virtue of gun ownership.


I think the biblical (both testaments) argument for self-defense in principle is very obvious and presented here by Wilson. The point is simply that in this day and age, a firearm is the most effective means of doing that.

Setting guns aside for a moment, do you not see a scriptural principle for self-defense? If not, how would you address Ex. 22:2, Prov. 25:26, 1 Sam 13?

Quote:
I thought I would at least get a little bit of helpful discussion on the Luke passage that Pastor Wilson tried to use to support his position.


I think you raise excellent points on the exegesis of Luke 22:36-38 and I would like to see Pastor Wilson respond as well. Calvin's commentary on that passage would seem to square with many of the issues you raised, for what it's worth.

That being said, I don't think the biblical case for self-defense stands or falls on Luke 22:36-38. It's certainly interesting and applicable depending on your interpretation, but I don't think it makes or breaks the case.
holmegm  - re:  Friday, January 04, 2013 10:49 am
Jonathan wrote:
A lot of personal opinions about the "virtue" argument, very little about the actual New Testament basis for the virtue of gun ownership.

I thought I would at least get a little bit of helpful discussion on the Luke passage that Pastor Wilson tried to use to support his position.


Since there is no "thou shalt/not have a sword", all discussion of this - including yours - could potentially be dismissed as "personal opinion". So we'll leave that to the side.

It is rather odd that Jesus would recommend bringing swords, only to say to put them away shortly after. Since I don't accept the possibility of "contradictions", though, I am as unable to dismiss the first part of it as the second.

One possibility is that 1. swords are handy to have when going about at night, but 2. it was Jesus' mission to be captured in the garden (as opposed to being set upon by random brigands on the way there), so the use of swords in that situation was not appropriate.
Toby Wilson  Friday, January 04, 2013 11:20 am
Jonathan,

I am not able to respond to all of your points at this time, but I would like to respond to Point 3:

I don't know what version of the LXX you're reading, but in mine Deut. 3.26 uses an imperative verb for of the word for "enough," whereas in Luke 22.36, Jesus uses the noun form together with a state of being verb. They neither look nor sound alike. I can't imagine any native speaker would've thought they resembled each other at all. The noun form of ικανο- is a pretty common word, and shows up in Luke-Acts meaning "worthy" or "good enough" a few times. There isn't a significant lexical or grammatical reason to connect it to the passage in Deuteronomy.
Matthew N. Petersen  Friday, January 04, 2013 12:19 pm
Here's a quote that parallels most of the responses I've received.
Quote:
If said pastor issues a churchwide edict banning internet access, marches into the young man's house and forcibly removes the cabling and then fines him on the way out, yes he is (in principle) a Pelagian heretic.
I think you have missed Pr. Wilson's argument. His point here is not that force is bad, but that the evil is not in the stuff--it is not in the computer, it is not in the gun, it is in the heart. But getting rid of the internet to avoid porn is an example of getting rid of the stuff, and expecting the heart to change. And if it is Pelagian to hope that changing the stuff can have a positive change, then it is Pelagian to get rid of the internet to avoid porn.

The pastoral issue is just a red-herring anyway. I could have just as easily said that any young man that on his own gets rid of the internet is, by that logic, a Pelagian heretic.

There may be other reasons to push back against a governmental confiscation of guns, and property rights may be a legitimate reason. But it is not the one Pr. Wilson raised.
Quote:
When a young man comes to me with an interest in one of my daughters, I fully intend to ask him both how he plans to provide and protect. If the answer to "How will you protect her?"
And if his answer is: "I plan to protect her from sin by praying with her every night, and constantly listening to her, encouraging her, and showering love on her; I plan to protect her physically by locking the doors, but I think people are reasonably secure in America, if we feel threatened, mace will suffice, and if I were mugged, I'd rather peacefully give him my wallet than risk my life and his by trying to shoot him." you'd show him the door? (Or at least tell him to man up and buy a gun.) I think you're mixing your particular cultural fears with godliness.
katecho  Friday, January 04, 2013 12:22 pm
Jonathan wrote:
Quote:
A lot of personal opinions about the "virtue" argument, very little about the actual New Testament basis for the virtue of gun ownership.


Wilson already provided a significant and sufficient Scriptural basis for the principle of self-defense, which Jonathan seems to have no argument against. Wilson even granted that obedience to this principle wouldn't entail gun ownership, but it would entail something. I.e. not cotton balls. Finally, Wilson granted that his point was not that gun ownership in itself was a cardinal virtue, but that it was obedience consistent with a virtuous principle, such as a vocation to feed oneself and ones family. Jonathan still seems to be hung up with the notion that Wilson was calling gun ownership a distinct virtue unto itself.

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I thought I would at least get a little bit of helpful discussion on the Luke passage that Pastor Wilson tried to use to support his position.

Wilson did not try to use the Luke passage as an example of how to conduct the Great Commission, so most of Jonathan's bullet points lack pertinence to Wilson's appeal to this text. Wilson approached this passage very conservatively, and identified the undeniable features. First of all is the feature that the disciples were already packing swords. Jonathan doesn't dispute this. Second, Jesus knew He was headed for an encounter and yet the disciples were still packing when they got there. This indicates that the disciples understood nothing in Christ's words that would have made them leave their swords behind. Third, Wilson observes that Jesus's actual instructions are quite practical in nature, they involve several useful items that would simply be prudent for the itinerant evangelist that Jesus was sending out in the first century. The disciples present their swords and ask "what about these?", and Jesus gives His approval, "that'll do". What does all this demonstrate? It demonstrates that packing a sword for defense was normative for at least some fraction of God's people in the first century. Jonathan can't object to the obvious. Jonathan's suggestion that they packed swords for non-defensive reasons is a sign of desperation on his part. They weren't fruit peelers.

Almost all of Jonathan's itemized objections either miss the point or aren't adequately demonstrated. For example, his culminating argument in item 10 is against the sword as a means of fulfilling the Kingdom. Oddly this is a distinct point that Wilson had already made in this very post. Jonathan appears to ignore that and paint Wilson with his brush anyway. If Jonathan is going to wave the banner of brotherly charity, then he needs to be more careful to demonstrate some form of it in his handling of Doug's actual stated position. This kind of carelessness and/or distortion of Doug's positions will only undermine his credibility further.

Regarding item 4 in Jonathan's reply, Wilson doesn't offer the argument that every single believer must be packing, so that objection is irrelevant. It seems more likely that Jesus is giving instructions for the traveling blitz evangelist. Jesus gives similar instruction in other places, regarding how they are to move through the cities and how they are to accept hospitality, and how they are to shake the dust from their sandals when the Gospel is rejected. Traveling around as a stranger in the first century carried practical risks. Also, we aren't told whether the disciples may have acquired swords later on for their itinerant work. It seems likely they did, given Jesus' instructions for their safety. Jesus was "numbered with transgressors" and He knows His disciples are going to be viewed as hooligans and troublemakers too.

As far as the encounter at the Mount of Olives, Jonathan's objections to the general use of the sword based on this context are overreaching. At least some of the disciples wanted to defer to Jesus and asked if the sword was warranted. Peter apparently jumps ahead and renders a preemptive first strike without waiting for Jesus's response. Was Jesus's intervention related to that? We also know that Jesus was aware that His betrayal was imminent, and that He intended not to avoid the cup at that point. So Jesus's intervention could simply have been related to that.

Jonathan has failed to show a general rejection of the sword based on this passage. Jonathan does not address the fact that Jesus knew swords were going to be present on the scene. The application of Jesus's teaching about swords was about to be tested within hours. Jonathan's view assumes that Jesus was wasting His breath on bumbling disciples who were going to show up with swords in spite of Jesus anyway. Jonathan's view assumes a passive indifference on the part of Jesus regarding the disciples' lack of obedience to His instruction. That just doesn't fit the sequence of events. It seems more plausible that although Jesus intended to go quietly at His betrayal, He also intended witnesses to be present, and He was also concerned for their safety and their defense against the mob.
Matt H.  - re:  Friday, January 04, 2013 1:50 pm
Matthew N. Petersen wrote:
And if his answer is: "I plan to protect her from sin by praying with her every night, and constantly listening to her, encouraging her, and showering love on her;


"Excellent, delighted to hear it."

Quote:
I plan to protect her physically by locking the doors, but I think people are reasonably secure in America


"You're incredibly naive."

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if we feel threatened, mace will suffice,


"You're incredibly naive and also ignorant about the practicality of mace as a self-defense tool."

Quote:
and if I were mugged I'd rather peacefully give him my wallet than risk my life and his by trying to shoot him.


Depending on the circumstances this could be an entirely reasonable option. If he presents a knife, wants your wallet, you give it to him and he runs off, no problem at all. Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord. If he takes your wallet and then starts dragging my daughter towards a van and you stand there and watch, we've got a different scenario entirely. The love shower and encouragement from earlier isn't going to be real useful here.

Quote:
you'd show him the door? (Or at least tell him to man up and buy a gun.)


No, I'd continue the conversation. Some of his answers are reasonable; some display a great deal of ignorance. I would want to discern if that ignorance is simply a matter of needing to grow up a bit or if it's willful. If the latter, yes, we're on our way to the door.

I'd tell him that I once worked a city beat as a street cop. I've seen doors ripped off hinges and a father lying in a pool of blood with a 9mm exit wound in the back of his head. I've seen homes invaded through windows and attic vents and locked doors defeated by crowbars, bricks, boots and 2x4s. I've seen numerous people shot, maimed and killed who were behind locked doors.

I'd tell him I've been hit by mace in training and in the field and I've deployed it myself. I'd tell him that any time you deploy mace you're just as likely to get it yourself as your attacker. Does he know what it feels like? Can he still function with a face full of blowback mace? Because I do, and I know I can keep on fighting and swinging with mace dripping all over me. And if I can, so can an attacker.

I'd tell him I've seen a 160lb man in such a rage that it took mace, a TASER and four officers to wrestle him to the ground before he could be subdued.

I'd tell him I've seen a cop in the hospital with lacerations to the bone running the full length of his chest because he used the wrong tool for the job: he drew his mace on a guy wielding a knife when he should've drawn his gun.

I'd tell him I've seen grandmothers dragged across asphalt parking lots when a mugger grabbed their purse and a 12-year old kid bull-rush a fully armed cop who outweighed him 2-to-1.

I'd tell him I've sat with a rape victim, shivering and inconsolable, an hour after a rape because the man outweighed her by 100lbs and she was powerless to stop him. I've seen college-aged kids abducted from a nice part of town, raped and discarded in a trash can who were at the mercy of four evil men with no means of fighting back.

I'd tell him I saw all of this in two years in an entirely normal, midsized city in the southeastern U.S.

I'd tell him thinking he's "reasonably secure in America" and carrying mace is ignorant, foolish and dangerous.

Quote:
I think you're mixing your particular cultural fears with godliness.


I think you're mixing naivete and ignorance and calling it godliness.
Brian J Alldredge  Friday, January 04, 2013 5:35 pm
Matt H.,
Another former cop here. Pretty much ditto to everything you said. I worked as a cop for a year in a town called Niceville, believe it or not. And as towns go, it's pretty nice. Fairly low crime rate. Still more possibility of violent death or other crime than I want to have my family face without effective means of protection.
Michael Duryea  - FBI records/Chicago  Friday, January 04, 2013 9:28 pm
These two articles are very pertinent:

http://www.kc3.com/CCDW_Stats/fla_model.htm

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/01/04/chicago-has-tough-gun-laws-but-leads-nation-in-gun-violence/
David Douglas  Friday, January 04, 2013 10:58 pm
Matthew N. Petersen wrote:
Quote:
His point here is not that force is bad, but that the evil is not in the stuff--it is not in the computer, it is not in the gun, it is in the heart. But getting rid of the internet to avoid porn is an example of getting rid of the stuff, and expecting the heart to change. And if it is Pelagian to hope that changing the stuff can have a positive change, then it is Pelagian to get rid of the internet to avoid porn.


Can you really not see the distinction between these two cases?

Doug thinks people have no right to outlaw guns because they (things) are not the problem. Doug might counsel someone to stay off the internet because that person has a problem with porn on the internet.

I suggest that if you can't parse the difference between these two cases in a way that is not a contradiction then you will find Jesus (and scripture) to be full of category errors as well:

Jesus said if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off, etc. So the sin is clearly in the stuff. Except, he also said, that stuff that goes into the body isn't the problem, but the things that come out of the heart.

Dark streets are not a problem per se. To a foolish young man with super-saturated hormones they can be a one way trip to a bottomless pit.

Seats are not a problem. Nor is walking, nor standing. But we are not to walk in the counsel of the wicked, stand in the path of sinners, nor sit amongst scorners.

Oh that scripture had a comments section....


Look, we are commanded to flee youthful lusts. If one can't open a web page without wanting to download porn, maybe it would be good to avoid the temptation. Part of mortification is ....well.....not commissioning sins of commission.


Guns, like hands, seats, walking, standing, dark streets, and the internet, are perfectly lawful. Guns are the state of the art tool for fulfilling a command of God. As are all the other things. For government to outlaw any of these things is high handed rebellious over-reach. For a pastor to exhort someone to avoid any of these good things because he is too weak to obey scripture while in their presence is simply shepherding the flock, aka applying the Word.
Matthew N. Petersen  Friday, January 04, 2013 11:30 pm
David: As I said in my last comment, that distinction is an important distinction, but it is a different one than Pr. Wilson uses in the post. His point in that section is about the efficacy of changing the material conditions in changing the heart, not about the legitimacy of making morally neutral things illegal. One could also attempt to answer the second question--though, unless you think speed-limits are high-handed rebellious overreach, you should probably consider your arguments a little more closely.

Brian and Holmgren: May I suggest that you may suffer from confirmation bias? The cases you remember are, naturally, the gruesome ones, and as a police officer you come into contact with way more of them than most people do. My family has never owned guns--a kid a year ahead of my mother was killed when one accidentally discharged in his sleep, and she's terrified of them--and none of us has ever been remotely scared. My in-laws don't own guns either, and my wife and I, don't have one--and I doubt I know anyone here in Portland that has a gun for self-defense. This web-site says that only about a quarter of Americans own guns for self-defense, and almost surely, even fewer carry one with them.

Anyway, unless you're Michael Weston, you're always under threat from people stronger than you. Fundamentally, we must trust Christ for our safety. We're all called to be Franciscans, to some degree or another.
Matthew N. Petersen  Friday, January 04, 2013 11:34 pm
This web-site: http://www.gallup.com/poll/20098/gun-ownership-use-america.aspx
holmegm  - re:  Saturday, January 05, 2013 3:49 am
Matthew N. Petersen wrote:
Brian and Holmgren: May I suggest that you may suffer from confirmation bias? The cases you remember are, naturally, the gruesome ones, and as a police officer


Just want to point out that I am not and never have been a police officer - I believe that Matthew is referring to Matt H above.
Toby Wilson  Saturday, January 05, 2013 6:13 am
Here’s what it looks like from the cheap seats way down here in Texas . . .

Someone could read these two Scriptures as contradictory. They’d be wrong if they did.

Colossians 2.20-23:
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

1 Corinthians 6.12:
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Pastor Wilson’s comments regarding gun laws are a reasonable application of the Colossians 2.20-23, while his comments regarding judicious avoidance of computers are supported by 1 Corinthians 6.12. No further comment ought to be needed, but my fingers are telling me that further comment is on its way . . .

Guns do not create sin in people, nor do computers. A person who has a sinful inclination in a particular area (a predisposition to murder, say) would be wise to restrain himself from opportunity in that area. The avoidance of a particular opportunity to sin is discipline, and is beneficial. It is beneficial NOT because a material object is avoided, but rather because an opportunity to sin is avoided. Let me be clear: avoiding a gun itself is NOT beneficial morally in any way—period. Avoiding opportunity to act on temptation which a man knows is lurking in his heart (fleeing from it, even—I’m sure there’s something in the Bible about this) does have benefits.

There is a difference between a person who flees from temptation, and a person who is constantly rushing after temptation but has the opportunity repeatedly snatched from him.

On the other hand, a fellow who has no issues with violence gains zero moral or practical benefit from avoiding guns. If he scrupulously avoids guns, video games with guns, movies with guns, and even toy water guns—then feels morally superior for doing so—he has fallen into the error Paul was trying to correct in Colossians. He should repent, buy a gun, then come shoot some defenseless feral hogs in Texas. The whiskey and ammo are on me.

But then some congresscritter stands up and acts like we’d all be better people if they outlawed guns, that somehow we would be a more moral civilization if they took them away from us citizens. That’s stupid. It’s a contradiction of Colossians 2. It’s also the road to naked tyranny.

Should we all avoid passenger planes because they may tempt us to misuse them? Can I claim I am more moral if I don’t fly, and therefore flee all possibility of temptation? NO! If I did that I’d be a weirdo. You should avoid my advice and get me as far away from you as possible—probably by electing me to a high federal office.

And I’m against speed limits.
Frank Golubski  - Can we, or can't we?  Saturday, January 05, 2013 9:08 am
Quote:
With respect to arms as a means of preventing government tyranny, I've often wondered if the U.S. has been effectively disarmed already. …

In our time, the government is armed with Apache helicopters, Predator drones and tanks. The people are armed with, at most, semiautomatic rifles. The military technology and armament has increased at such a pace while the citizen is left with arms more or less unchanged over the last 100 years.


Recommended reading for anybody considering the topic of armed resistance in America (whether your current opinion on the subject is favorable or unfavorable):

First, a practical consideration. In "Armed Revolution Possible and Not So Difficult,", Bill Bridgewater recalls two examples of how, in our lifetime, guerrilla fighters successfully resisted technologically superior forces: Vietnam vs. the US, and Afghanistan vs. the Soviets. (As Matt has noted, history seems to be repeating itself in Afghanistan as we speak.) The moral: "Let your enemy be your quartermaster." (Or, "If you have a rifle, you can get mortars.")

(And don't let the website's title alarm you; I first read this piece in The Bullet Trap, the newsletter of the NRA-affiliated Arizona State Rifle & Pistol Assn., way back in 1994.)

Then there is a spiritual/ethical consideration: "Walter Mitty's Second Amendment," wherein Jeff Snyder explores the paradox of well-armed Americans who, because of our shallow selfishness, have long tolerated ever-increasing government interference in our lives, and thus have neither the inclination nor the moral capital to rise up against tyranny. The moral: Guns do not secure liberty; the character of the people who bear them do. (Or, "While we are rather well-armed, we have in fact rendered ourselves spiritually disarmed.")

Please read … and share.
Jonathan  Saturday, January 05, 2013 9:28 am
I thought a good lesson learned from Vietnam and Afghanistan was that in both instances, the use of violence turned out very badly for everyone involved, including millions of people who didn't chose to be involved at all.

On a completely different note, I agree with one of Toby's points. Please, please shoot all the feral hogs in Texas.
Matt H.  - re:  Saturday, January 05, 2013 10:03 am
Toby Wilson wrote:
And I’m against speed limits.


I think Toby's post is excellent and would echo all of it. I was also going to say the same thing about speed limits.

Toby beat me to it, however, as I was busy shopping for fetching handgun-rifle pairs as wedding gifts for my future sons-in-law.
Matthew N. Petersen  Saturday, January 05, 2013 11:46 am
You think speed limits are tyranny? Are you similarly opposed to traffic lights, stop signs, and laws requoring you tto drive on the right? If thats what you think tyranny is, three cheers for tyranny and saved lives.

Regarding the other point: But the argument isn't that we will suddenly become better people--that's a pretty blatant straw-man--but that situations will be less volatile, and so fewer people will die.

Finally, for every Afganistan receiving guns from America, there's a Solidarity. And I'd much rather go to Poland than Afganistan.
Jonathan  - re:  Saturday, January 05, 2013 11:54 am
Matthew N. Petersen wrote:
Finally, for every Afganistan receiving guns from America, there's a Solidarity. And I'd much rather go to Poland than Afganistan.

And for every Vietnam/Cambodia/Laos, there's an India.
RYAN BOOMERSHINE  - How This Hits Home  Wednesday, January 09, 2013 9:34 am
Five minutes before you posted this article, three men broke into my home home. Here is what we are saying about it.

http://tobeapilgrim.wordpress.com/2013/01/07/what-thieves-cannot-break-through-and-steal/