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Santorum, Just War, and False Equivalence PDF Print E-mail
Culture and Politics - Politics
Written by Douglas Wilson   
Saturday, 18 February 2012 12:14

One of the things that needs to be removed from the discussion of Ron Paul's views of foreign policy is a false equivalence that has become something of a meme in these discussions. It is a false equivalence, not because there could never be an equivalence, but rather because it is being assumed to be an automatic equivalence.

Equivalent what? I am speaking of the civilian casualties of war, what is sometimes infelicitously called "collateral damage," and the fatalities that result from abortion-on-demand. When these two are placed on the same moral plane in the heat of debate, it is an understandable mistake. Just as there is a fog of war, so also there is a fog of debate. But a studied, steadfast refusal to distinguish them is in reality a moral failing and we really need to be done with it.

Let me set this alongside a comparable moral failing -- the refusal to acknowledge a distinction between a deliberate targeting of civilians (as when Hamas blows up a pizza joint full of teenagers) and when one of our units targets combatants who place themselves in close proximity to civilians, so that the civilians might get caught in the crossfire. If the rules of engagement instruct our troops to do whatever is possible to protect the lives of such civilians, then this is completely different from the first scenario. These are two military actions which result in the deaths of civilians, but they nevertheless occupy two different moral universes.

Bring it back to the abortion debate. It is simply confused to say that, "well, Santorum opposes killing children in the womb, but he is okay with blowing children up in Afghanistan." That is just outrageous, and way too facile.

Now it is possible for those two actions of "child-killing" to be morally equivalent. When children are deliberately murdered in the womb, and when children are deliberately targeted in a war zone, then that really is morally equivalent. But when someone defends a particular action, in line with just war theory (jus ad bellum), and defends our conduct and rules of engagement (jus in bello), it is not possible to engage them in a debate simply by asserting that children are dying in both instances. Yes, they are, but what is the intent, and on what scale? What are the actual facts on the ground?

 

When it is claimed that U.S. actions directly caused hundreds of thousands of innocents to die in Iraq, this is a claim of fact. It could be true, and it might not be true at all. It must be investigated as a fact to be determined, and not simply taken on as an a priori assumption. Abortion is not in this category at all; the whole point of abortion is to remove an inconvenient human life, innocent by definition.

And when you undertake to investigate the claim of fact, you have to remember that atrocity stories are one of the fundamental weapons of war. The first casualty in war is the truth, and when dramatic and striking claims are made (in any direction, by anybody), the thinking Christian will need more than the fact that he read it on the Internet on a partisan site. But if the atrocity stories turn out to be true, and some of our troops are found to have been genuinely guilty of murdering children for grins, does anybody seriously think that Santorum would be opposed to trying and punishing the perpetrators? If he said something like, "Yeah, they're guilty, but let them go anyway," then at that point it would be legitimate to bring up the issue of equivalence. To do so prior to such a point is at best confusion and at worst disingenuous.

When it is claimed that Roe v. Wade has resulted in the deaths of more than 40 million Americans, the facts of the case are not contested. Taking those lives is the whole point. We must not allow that evil to be blurred with an argument about foreign engagements where the facts are reasonably disputed by reasonable Christian men. If we let these two disparate things get all tangled up, and if we persist in doing so, then all we are demonstrating is that we are too morally muddled to contribute much to our public discourse.



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Andrew Isker  - It's not like he is going to read Rushdoony in the  Saturday, February 18, 2012 1:01 pm
Let's say the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were unjust from the get-go and the United States had no legitimate reason to bomb, invade, and occupy those two countries. Then whether or not civilians were directly or indirectly killed ceases to be an issue.

Are the deaths on the same scale as Roe v. Wade? Of course not. Absolutely not. Are these wars grossly immoral, unjust, and unbiblical? I would argue they are.

And you are right, they should not be muddled.

But I've said before that Santorum is right on abortion and homosexual marriage, and wrong on everything else. The reason Santorum gets so much pull with evangelicals is because of our myopic view of American politics. We (rightly) see Christ's authority over the state when it comes to abortion and homosexuality. But we are blind to (at best) or reject entirely (at worst) His authority over warfare, the role of government, the spending of government, monetary policy, and the extent of government authority. These are not areas of neutrality. But we accept Rick Santorum, despite how awful he is with regard to these issues, as if we can be neutral.

Rick Santorum is not like the men who built this country. Not even close. He does not have a biblical view of civil government. When it comes to anything other than abortion and homosexuality, he's not going to ask, "what does the Bible say about this?" It's not like he is going to read Rushdoony in the Oval Office. He would continue the tyranny of the American State despite the fact that it is a Christian statesman's duty to fight it.
Douglas Wilson  Saturday, February 18, 2012 1:23 pm
Andrew, glad you are keeping those two disparate issues distinct. That was the main point of my post. Once the issues are separated, we can then debate them more intelligently.

But a country could be screwed up on jus ad bellum and still be honorable in its conduct of jus in bello. If it is an unjust war from the get-go, that would mean that those who died unnecessarily were in fact killed unjustly, but I would argue it still is in a different category. That is because the foot soldier in the war is not responsible for the decisions that led to war, but is still responsible to conduct himself as a Christian in his conduct.
Andrew Isker  Saturday, February 18, 2012 1:34 pm
I'm glad we can agree! :)

But what about the other issues where his views conflict with scripture?
Tammy Burns  Saturday, February 18, 2012 2:05 pm
The foot soldier isn't responsible but the Congress is responsible. Santorum supported the Iraq war. He is responsible. So he's in the same category.
Tammy Burns  Saturday, February 18, 2012 1:08 pm
The wars are not just. When lobbyists visit politicians because its beneficial to the lobbyists, you need to realize the politicians policies are founded on whatever helps the lobbyists. This includes their policies on war. If the big monied corporations want to go to war, the politicians go to war.

The lobbyists don't visit Ron Paul. This is because he has principals. He cant be bought. Santorum has benefited financially by being in Washington. Dr. Paul has made his money by being a doctor.
Ron Smith  - a question, a concession, and an appeal  Saturday, February 18, 2012 2:10 pm
What if a war is unjust? Do the civilian casualties of that war fall into the same category as they would had the war been just?

I'm fine dropping the comparison between the questionably accidental loss of life from our wars to the definitely deliberate taking of life in Abortion America, but can we stop comparing Santorum to Paul as if one was Pro-Life and the other wasn't?

Ron Paul wants to end abortion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctity_of_Life_Act Santorum may articulate a heavier handed position on how to handle the abortion issue than Paul does (Federal vs State issue), but I can't trust a thing Santorum says since his positions have been all over the board. Bush was a "pro-life" president whose great victory for life was making partial birth abortion illegal. That's something like 0.2% of abortions. So they basically did nothing to stop abortion in America, but Santorum touts this on his website as evidence of his pro-lifership.

Bush had the house and senate majority for 6 years and yet they rejected Paul's Sanctity of Life Act which would have immediately saved lives by allowing states to outlaw abortion, simply because it wasn't a federal solution.

A big government, top down approach to the abortion issue has only served to keep the issue alive for politicians to garner support based on a single issue they have no ability to, nor any intention of really addressing. It's nothing more than a slight of hand trick. While the right hand is holding a pro-life sign, the left hand is robbing us blind.
Douglas Wilson  Saturday, February 18, 2012 2:15 pm
Ron, I am happy to say that Ron Paul is strongly pro-life (although with some muddle about estrogen shots). And, as I have argued in the past, I would be happy with an incremental state-level strategy to end abortion -- just so long as it didn't turn into a state-level settlement.
Will S  Saturday, February 18, 2012 2:24 pm
I love that the Ron Paul fans have proposed a new 'Ronpaulian Paragraph' to the Book of Church Order - "support anyone but Ron Paul for president and you are disqualified for ministry."

It is quite hilarious.
Ron Smith  Saturday, February 18, 2012 2:47 pm
I love how anti-Paul fans show their hatred for freedom by dipping their broad brush into obscure, minority statements like Devin's in an attempt to tarnish the entire liberty movement.

It is quite hilarious.
Nicolas Barbeito  - justifiable homicide  Saturday, February 18, 2012 2:41 pm
Will S.

U.S. law allows for you to use deadly force if you are in legitimate and imminent danger. This means demonstrating that the attacker had the means and demonstrated intent. Your use of justifiable killing in the case of Iran would allow me to search out and kill anyone who verbally threatened me. I suggest looking at the outcomes of homicides where the defendants used those pleas.
The U.S. government is not above its own law.
John Rabe  Saturday, February 18, 2012 3:20 pm
I think this thread amply demonstrates why I can't cast my lot with the Paul People. Far from being an obscure, minority position in the Paul camp (sorry, Ron), what I see here is what I've experienced in virtually all of my interactions with the Paul contingent. This is what it looks like to be in the grips of an ideology, and as a Christian, I find all ideologies--even the ones that have some good ideas about government spending--to be dangerous.

The supporters of other candidates seem able to readily admit their candidate's flaws. "He's excellent on X," they'll say, "but I admit that he could be better on Y." But one finds none of that with the Paul People--one of the true marks of an ideology. The man has never made a mistake. He's wrong on nothing. Any criticism of him whatever, no matter how mild, no matter how couched in sympathy for his other positions, is met with the charge that the critic is either blind, evil, mentally ill, or at the very least a big-government enemy of the republic.

It's the grip of ideology that causes someone to proclaim ministers unfit for the ministry because they fail to support a candidate who has, for example, when explicitly asked how his Christian faith would affect his presidency, responded, "Well, my religious beliefs wouldn't affect [my presidency]."

Until the Paul People show any ability to say, on any issue whatsoever, "Yeah, he really blew it on that one," I'll consider myself free to continue ignoring them. There's a lot I like about Ron Paul. I really do. But the hysteria and political absolutism of the ideological bouncers of his movement show me why a Ron Paul presidency would never work. Or happen.
Ron Smith  Saturday, February 18, 2012 5:18 pm
John, my response to Will was tongue in cheek if you didn't get that. I employed the same tactic on Will as a representative of anti-Paul fans as he employed with Devin as a representative of Paul fans. I don't really think critiquing Paul amounts to a hatred of freedom. But I do think that taking Devin's statement as representative of Paul supporters is dishonest and silly, really, considering how many of them aren't religious and couldn't care less about the qualifications for religious office.
Peter Roise  - Speaking of converts...  Saturday, February 18, 2012 3:59 pm
One additional thought. I think it will help you understand Ron Paul supporters if you realize that we are almost all converts. Most of us have at one time defended unjust war to ourselves or others because we were duped by the propaganda machine which all too often included fellow believers and even church leaders. I think all of us are ready to willingly "forgive" anyone else who mistakenly supported unjust warmongering in the past but when it comes to supporting warmongering today we're a little bit like converted Catholics about popery. If you sound even a little bit warmongery, or especially if you say something nice about a rabid warmonger like Sanitorium, we can all see that you are trying to lead us back to the Neo-con fold, and that is, in fact, betrayal. I won't be dogmatic about whether this perception is correct, I'll just say that I understand where Devin is coming from, although I hope I'm more careful in expressing my dissent.

I think this perspective might also be useful as you interpret the anti-war rhetoric of Ron Paul supporters. It may be less careful and more zealous at points, because we've been down that road and we're not going back.

The bottom line for me is the Ron Paul has opened my eyes to a few more of our societal sins, and especially to the ones I used to go along with. I'm not going to do that any more. And I think I'm a little confused about how you can support a warmonger like Rick and not essentially be going along with his unjust interventionist and neocon preemptive war philosophy. And, of course, that would entail defending the horrific results as somehow justified, or justifiable, which is where the comparisons to the abortion butchery come from. Perhaps if you explain how supporting Rick isn't supporting unjust and illegal war I will at least understand where you're coming from. However, I can pretty much guarantee I'm not going to vote for him.
Peter Roise  - Who?  Saturday, February 18, 2012 4:16 pm
John,who are you talking about?! This looks to me like one big ad hom. Who said Ron Paul is perfect? None of us say that, including Ron Paul. Sheesh.

And for good measure, let me point out that I think Dr. Paul is wrong that liberty can be achieved, or even properly longed for apart from the Gospel which is liberty from sin and death. Dr. Paul lives this, but I do see it as unfortunate that he often preaches a secularized liberty gospel. I hope his example is more powerful than his words, and that I as a supporter can meet and persuade those who want to use liberty for vice, that sin is bondage.
C. Frank Bernard  - caught in the crossfire?  Saturday, February 18, 2012 4:29 pm
Quote:
Let me set this alongside a comparable moral failing -- the refusal to acknowledge a distinction between a deliberate targeting of civilians (as when Hamas blows up a pizza joint full of teenagers) and when one of our units targets combatants who place themselves in close proximity to civilians, so that the civilians might get caught in the crossfire.


Does crossfire include bombs? For example, can the "High Explosive Anti-Tank" and "Metal augmented charge" warheads of a UAV's Hellfire missiles be exclusive enough to cause serious bodily injury only to intended targets when "in close proximity to civilians"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-114_Hellfire

As bombing becomes an increasingly accepted rule of engagement (jus in bello) in closer and closer proximity of civilians (or as the bombs do more widespread damage), the targeting of civilians becomes deliberate.
Devin Mork  - Just War? Santorum? Really?  Saturday, February 18, 2012 5:29 pm
Now, I'm not sure to which point of the debate against Rick Santorum's war mongering you are responding. However, I would like to suggest that even if these casualties fall into the biblically based categories of Just War, Rick Santorum is not a proponent of Just War.

When asked about the validity of a pre-emptive strike against Iran, Santorum responded by defending himself because of "this thing called Just War." He summed up the theory, saying that sometimes it is appropriate to take a few lives to save a larger majority.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnMzFk5qa80

This is not Just War. This is the pre-emptive war theory of Adolf Hitler. Just War would require that the United States hold off on military use until Iran had actually done some damage that earned a retribution. Rick Santorum knows neither the actual state of Iran's nuclear program nor the principles by which he thinks he can shut it down. He has been a foolish politician, and he will make a foolish president with the military at his (unconstitutional) disposal.

I fail to see why you won't support Ron Paul. The man isn't perfect. As I have noted elsewhere, Jesus isn't running for president this year. However, Ron Paul is the most consistent conservative, voting in a way that is in line with his rhetoric every time. He vehemently opposes abortion, unjust and unconstitutional wars, and the overbearing attitudes of our power-hungry bureaucracy. No, he's not going to institute Calvinist Paedobaptist Christianity as our national religion. But he is the only candidate who sees right through the pseudo-patriotic idolatry of 21st-Century Americans and has a plan to move us from insanity to solvency.

I hope that you will give Ron Paul a chance. Your support of Rick Santorum nearly, in my view, disqualifies you for waxing political analyst when your prime efficacy is in your ministering the gospel. Santorum's deceptively corrupt use of public funds throughout his congressional career proves him an overt lover of money. That you never address this as significant character flaw, as you no doubt would were he seeking eldership or other leadership position, makes me wonder if you should stick to pastoral ministry and theological writings leaving the public sphere to the historians and economists at the Ludwig von Mises Institute (http://mises.org). They might not begin with biblical exegesis for their criteria, but they observe the candidates holistically.

[Edited 7:29 pm, Feb 18, 2012 by Devin Mork]
Tammy Burns  Saturday, February 18, 2012 7:00 pm
We aren't saying Ron Paul is perfect. He doesn't think you can legislate morality. But he thinks the states are free to if that's what they want. So we don't have to agree with him.

Its just so rare to find someone who isn't in with the big corporations. Who respects the constitution. Once we had mass media, no candidate like Paul could make it this far in a presidential race. But through the internet, he has raised money and alternative media has covered him.
David Smith  Sunday, February 19, 2012 6:08 am
If I've written this here before, my apologies for being tedious and repetitive - I've thought so much about this that I'm forgetting what's in my head and what I've written - but I am confused at all the hostility aimed at Dr. Paul from so-called conservatives. Do a simple study of history. His conservatism is by far more in line with that of the founders than any candidate out there. While, for example, I think he could take a firmer stance from the federal level regarding the unconstitutionality of abortion based upon the idea of not depriving anyone of life, liberty or property without due process and still maintain the original intent of the document, he is spot-on about reinvigorating state sovereignty regarding this issue and many, many others. As a matter of fact, he seems to actually believe there is an original intent to be found in our founding documents and seeks to be consistent in his hermeneutic and interpretations based upon it in both his thoughts and actions. I find it difficult, therefore, to take seriously a "conservative" candidate lauding the Constitution one minute and then promising to initiate or extend a clearly unconstitutional program the next. (The "conservative" George W. Bush comes to mind here in his support for TARP back in '08: "I had to violate my free market principles in order to save it." I'm not questioning his motives, but principles ain't principles if you violate them!)

This is analogous to us as evangelicals seeking to hold fast to the original intent of Scripture. You and I may disagree about that original intent in certain areas, but we at least agree that such a thing exists! I can respect that hermeneutic and the debate that ensues, knowing we are at least in the same ballpark, playing at the same game!

So, he's a looney-toon because he advocates Congress actually declaring war, as the Constitution prescribes; he's crazy because he doesn't believe we have any business messing around in other folks' countries, nation-building (Crazy, that is, like the mentally unstable George Washington and Thos. Jefferson who spoke of avoiding "entangling alliances", or J.Q. Adams who wrote of not needing to seek monsters to slay overseas); he's nuts and anti-Semitic because he is running for the presidency of the U.S. and not Israel, whom he believes has every right and duty to defend herself.

There's a whole host of reasons for "conservative" opposition to Dr. Paul, some sincere, some, more cynical and pragmatic. When he speaks of following the Constitution, I strongly suspect many who take a serious look at the implications are overwhelmed at the extent to which we are out of whack and frightened at what that would mean (gradual elimination of programs we may ourselves profit from). One can argue we've been "broke" in this regard virtually from the beginning of the republic, and that's true, two of the founders I mentioned above guilty of some pretty unconstitutional actions themselves (e.g. The Whiskey "Rebellion", Louisiana Purchase). But some of us seem to believe it's merely a matter of getting the current occupant of the WH out and putting a Republican in; adjusting the proportions in both houses of Congress in favor of the GOP, etc. That isn't enough. The breakage goes back farther than that, folks! Go back 100 years! Heck, go back 150 and you'll be closer to the mark!

As a veteran of the military, I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic; politicians, including the President, take a very similar oath. I for one would really appreciate a candidate who took the original intent of the principles in the document he is committing to uphold seriously. Perhaps more of us citizens need to take that intent more seriously as well.
Will S  - The Infallible Paul  Sunday, February 19, 2012 6:06 am
I think Peter's comment is instructive but also sort of explains why I find the Ron Paulites so disturbing. There is definitely a religious-like fervency to the support of Ron Paul. It is not just people on this chain. I know people in my personal life (family etc) who have the same fervent support. And this support is unlike the support that most people have for a candidate. Most people support a candidate because the candidate most closely represents their views on a whole host of issues. They recognize that the candidate is a human and that they will have inconsistencies and compromises in their record and current view. The support for Ron Paul is different.

But with Paul, there no longer is a separate political philosophy to compare your candidate to. The candidate is the standard! Just like the infallible pope cannot teach false doctrine by definition (once he says it, it is true) the infallible Paul is right by definition. When Paul made his very wrong statement about the morning after pill, I was shocked that there arose a defense of his statement instead of a denouncement of it! Paulites were more willing change their view on abortion than to admit that Paul was fallible! When Ron Paul flip flopped on DADT, supporters decided that DADT was bad afterall and again flipped their own view rather than admit fallibility. Issue after issue causes Paul fans to switch views rather than admit he is wrong.

And they are very fervent in their defense of him. They call anyone who disagrees with Paul on foreign policy 'warmongerers'. I joke that they their fervency has caused them to call for a Ronpaulian paragraph in the BCO but the fact that someone actually said it is telling. There is a crazy religious fervency to this support that is amazingly weird.

Ron Paul fans: Realize that he is just another candidate. The problems of the world would not be solved if only America would wake up and elect him. He is a fallible and fallen man who can be charismatic and good but also quite wrong. Then realize that everyone who disagrees with him is not by definition wrong.
David Smith  Sunday, February 19, 2012 6:32 am
Will S:

Okay! Agreed! Perhaps you've dealt with this in other postings, but please deal with Dr. Paul himself - apart from some of his fanatical, whacky supporters - and do so based upon the document he will potentially swear to support and defend, the Constitution.
Steve Goldman  - For Santorum or just anti-Paul?  Sunday, February 19, 2012 8:00 am
Okay, Will. You're employing a tactic the ungodly like to use against the church: "The church is full of hypocrites!" Does that make the truth of Christianity any less viable? Instead of disregarding Ron Paul because of some fanatical supporters, have enough intelligence to disregard him based on the truth, or lack of truth, in his positions. List out the things you don't like about Paul and explain why Santorum's positions are better - then maybe we can have a debate that is worthwhile. One thing I'm not seeing in this discussion is specific reasons why people are supporting Santorum, only why they won't support Paul. Stick your necks out there, people . . .
Peter Roise  - Still missing the point...  Sunday, February 19, 2012 1:11 pm
Will, you're still missing the point, I think. Dr. Paul has persuaded me of some things--opened my eyes. I'm thankful to Dr. Paul and I admire and support him, but the more important point that you seem to have skipped over is that I will no longer be voting for anyone who supports illegal and unjust wars. This is now a very important principle for me. A without-which-not for my support for any candidate. I'd be glad to support a more eloquent constitutional-war, pro-life, anti-fed candidate if there was one. Right now there isn't, at least in the presidential race.

I'm assuming you're a pro-life voter. It would be ridiculous for me to call you a fanatic because you won't support pro-choice candidates. In a similar way, this Ron Paul voter is a Constitutional-War only voter and I won't ever again vote for someone like George W. That blood was on my hands and I don't want it there ever again.
Tammy Burns  Sunday, February 19, 2012 6:55 am
The reason Paul's supporters are so enthused is we haven't had a candidate that's made it this far who the lobbyists don't visit. Its been since the country started having long term corporations. Once money started being concentrated into corporations, policy started favoring them because they contributed to getting politicians elected.
Devin Mork  - Monetary Policy  Sunday, February 19, 2012 7:25 am
The fundamental piece that sets Ron Paul apart from the other candidates is not his positions on war or abortion, but his monetary policy. He is the only candidate currently running for president in our two big parties that understands the nature of money. Our government, by establishing the Federal Reserve System and abandoning the gold standard in the 20th Century, has dragged the rest of the world into an insurmountable amount of debt. It's not just about America's foolish spending, it's about the very definition of "U.S. Dollar."

http://youtu.be/VBRZYrblZ24

The other candidates, in their ignorance of or love for our current system (where the only thing backing a U.S. Dollar is ultimately a Treasury Bond), are by definition wrong, as far as the majority of Ron Paul supporters go. Under any of the other presidential candidates, I have no guarantee that my money will by bread in 2012. Under Ron Paul (who would end the Federal Reserve's inflationary practice and introducing competing currencies, lifting old laws so we can buy and sell with something besides a U.S. Dollar in the U.S.), people would not be directly dependent on the Federal Government and the Federal Reserve to maintain that my money had purchasing power. I could, instead, trade using a bill which represented real gold/silver and was issued by a trustworthy bank. The following cartoon is a simple way to explain this: https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fscripturalscrutinydotcom.files.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F01%2Fthe-official-counterfeiter-biblical-economics.pdf&pli=1

I believe also that I can make a case that establishing a sound money system is one of the most fundamental ways that a government executes justice. Money is not simply a "means of trade," money is a commodity that is in high demand, that everyone finds valuable, that is easily divisible, and that is of limited quantity. Gold and silver meet all of these requirements. The U.S. Dollar is only in circulation because the government will throw you in jail if you try to trade with anything else.

If you're pro-life, you execute justice and mercy for your unborn neighbor. If anti-war, for your neighbors in Afghanistan. Employing a sound money system executes justice for everybody. Ron Paul is all three of these things. Rick Santorum is one of them, at least in word.
Joseph Hession  Sunday, February 19, 2012 10:46 am
Quote:
Bring it back to the abortion debate. It is simply confused to say that, "well, Santorum opposes killing children in the womb, but he is okay with blowing children up in Afghanistan." That is just outrageous, and way too facile.


Pastor Wilson,

I grant you your point, but we are not talking about the actions of the soldier who, having been ordered into the line of fire, does his best to kill enemies and protect innocents. No, we are not talking about the soldier, we are talking about the person who makes the immoral or moral choice to put our soldiers in such a position, and the argument being made is that the person who immorally sends our troops into a place where he knows innocents will die is murderous.
Joseph Hession  Sunday, February 19, 2012 11:24 am
Quote:
Ron Paul fans: Realize that he is just another candidate. The problems of the world would not be solved if only America would wake up and elect him. He is a fallible and fallen man who can be charismatic and good but also quite wrong. Then realize that everyone who disagrees with him is not by definition wrong.


Will S., I won't speak to Paul's atheist, libertine supporters, but the answer to why there are some of us Christians who ardently support Dr. Paul is because we are on the verge of complete collapse, and he is the only person running from office who understands the reasons for this and will do his best to reverse them. It's really that simple. And if he was not a threat to the establishment then you would not see this sort of stuff happening:

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B_wWkfsJPShUMWQxMTc2NzgtM2MzYy00ZGJhLWI1MmYtMWU2ZGU1OWZkZjhk&pli=1
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B_wWkfsJPShUOGRmYjdlN2YtZDY5Zi00YjkwLTg3NDUtNDIwNjYwZjkyY2Iw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PyixR66CQMw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hONl8bAhRGI
Joseph Hession  Sunday, February 19, 2012 11:30 am
Oh, and this one too...
http://www.wiziq.com/tutorial/203799-Maine-Irregularities-Summary
Devin Mork  - Same Guy?  Sunday, February 19, 2012 3:23 pm
Where did this Doug Wilson go?

Quote:
But when two armies are going to attack your city, you should actually fight off the army that got there first and is currently scaling the walls. We are in a financial crisis, like, right now, and our worthy representatives continue to spend approximately 7 million dollars a minute.

Why don't we just ask them this question? Why don't you gents prove to us how capable you are of fighting off the clear danger of terrorism by actually fighting off the present danger of your suicidal and lunatic voting patterns?


http://www.dougwils.com/Politics/monga-debt-and-national-security.html
Douglas Wilson  Sunday, February 19, 2012 3:52 pm
Same guy! Still here!
Devin Mork  Sunday, February 19, 2012 7:11 pm
Maybe it's the new haircut...
Alvin Brent  Monday, February 20, 2012 8:00 pm
Saw an article today where Ron Paul offered specifics as to what he would do regarding abortion. First, he made it clear he is absolutely pro-life. Stated it was scientific fact that life begins at conception.

His approach... ask Congress to remove jurisdiction over abortion from the Federal Courts. Straight up-or-down vote. Once removed, the issue goes back to the states.

Simultaneously push for a right-to-life amendment to the US Constitution thereby obligating all states to observe the right to life.

This seems to me to be a sensible approach with the most chance for success.

Look, all these presidential candidates are fallible. We've been left at the altar so many times it's a joke, especially pursuing this 'Federal/Washington/Supreme Court' path regarding this issue. Ron Paul is no exception. However, he has proven to have more backbone, more consistency, more reliability than any of these other guys running on the Republican side.

BTW, Pastor Wilson's exactly right on this war ='s abortion argument that sometimes sprouts from the Paul camp. There is just no moral equivalence to destroying an unborn child. That is the most demented and sick form of perversion there is.

Frankly, the reason I oppose war in Iran or anywhere else is b/c we lead the world in the killing of unborn children. Seriously, before the big bad USA goes off to make 'war' on some other country because they won't behave... go look in the mirror. Our country needs to drop it's warships and tanks for one second and get on it's knees and repent in sackcloth over this great crime against our own children! How silly we must look from the heavens!
Michael C  Wednesday, February 22, 2012 12:11 am
I had been convinced of Austrian economics for years before I finally came around to supporting Ron Paul. It was his foreign policy that was the sticking point for me. Suffice it to say, I've become significantly more skeptical of foreign adventurism. But as a military kid I still bristle at some of the brash arguments antiwar proponents make.

That said, I think there tends to be a subtle devaluation of human life beyond our borders. It is an unfortunate and unavoidable fact that innocent citizens will sometimes die in war. But I think there is an insidious temptation to dismiss news that we have wrongfully bombed a school or apartment somewhere in the Middle East. (What would we think if a foreign gov't was making that kind of mistake in Topeka?) Whether's it's a form of racism or just a byproduct of geographic distance, we tend not to mourn the fact that our government has killed innocent people, humans who bear the image of God.

It's unhelpful to overstate the situation, as some eager RP converts have done, but the larger argument is on-target: Christians should be the most vigilant about protecting innocent life in any sphere.
Luke Thompson  Monday, February 27, 2012 6:35 am
Wow! Thank God that I found your blog! I have been going crazy trying to find an Evangelical leader who is speaking to these issues.

Dr. Wilson, thank you so much for starting this discussion! This seems to be the only place that I can find a reasonable, Christian discussion about Santorum's viability as a consistently pro-life candidate (life lost due to unjust war and abortion).

I can't really add much of value to the discussion. I will simply say that I am firmly in the Paul camp! I am also a convert from the pro-war, Republican crowd. Logically, it just seems so clear cut to me.

Keep it up!

Dr. Wilson, would you write a blog article about the ideological underpinnings of a Conservative vs. Classic Liberal view to government. Maybe it's implied, but I have moved from the former to the latter. :)