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The Real Action Is Elsewhere PDF Print E-mail
Theology - Roman or Catholic?
Written by Douglas Wilson   
Wednesday, 29 March 2006 16:53

Jesus told the parable of two sons who were told to go work in the vineyard. One said he would go and did not. The other said he would not go, and then went. "Which one was obedient?" Jesus asked.

The recent posts that I have offered on Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy have certainly generated a lot of comments, and I cannot say I was expecting that. But if the subject is addressed with the foundational issues in view, it touches on far more than denominational questions, and perhaps that accounts for the interest. I am not trying to whack a hornet nest, but I am living, writing, and teaching as a Reformed minister. I believe what I do, and here is some of it, written down for your amusement and edification.

I am a classical Protestant, a high church Puritan, a sacramental Calvinist, and a soteriological Augustinian. This complex of views did not appear in the world in the last few years, but has been confessionally intact for centuries, and has had notable representatives and advocates in the long history of the church before that. And in living within this noble tradition, I want to believe what I affirm, and affirm what I believe.

So which way does it go? Does the gold sanctify the altar, or the altar the gold?

I am told that my Protestantism is "modern," but classical Protestants deny the theory of evolution root and branch, and John Paul II had no trouble with evolution. Who has accommodated with one of the central claims of modernity?

I am told that my Protestantism is inherently sectarian and schismatic, and yet the bishops of Eastern Orthodoxy have a labyrinth of intersecting jurisdictions and competing interests that are, well, frankly, Byzantine. We are told that the multitude of Protestant denominations cannot be what the Lord had in mind when He prayed for unity in John 17. All right, let us look at the disharmony and disfellowshipping that is pervasive across the Eastern Orthodox world. Is that what He had in mind?

I am told that my Protestantism has no cultural soul, but then I have to return to my work in establishing a classical Christian college in which we have the students studying numerous talented pagans, Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants. And I have to say, glancing over the curriculum, when it comes to cultural contributions, Protestants have certainly managed to carry our end of the log. Shoot, I think we would have carried our end of the log if J.S. Bach had been our only representative.

I am told that my Protestantism is disconnected from the ancient church, but I belong to a confederation of churches, every member of which is required to have the Apostles' Creed, the Nicean Creed, and the Definition of Chalcedon in their confessional statements. Not only that, but all the elders and pastors in our churches are required to believe them. We are a tiny splinter presbytery, you say, and I admit it. There are not many of us. In fact, there are more Roman Catholic priests in some states of our fair Republic who don't believe any item in the Apostles Creed than we have ministers who believe them all. Those who are sons of Abraham do the works of Abraham, and those who are sons of the apostles should have the decency to exhibit some kind of family resemblance. I say councils err and have erred, but actually believe every word of Chalcedon, including theotokos. Another man says that they cannot err, being the authoritative decisions of the holy Church, but always finds a way to reinterpret his way into some kind of comfort zone.

I am told that my Protestantism is disconnected from the apostolic church, but since my youth I have been steeped in the words and instructions of the apostles. And I have had acquaintances in the so-called apostolic communions who had no idea what the apostles taught, never having read them.

My favorite papist, G.K. Chesterton, once said that a courageous man would be willing to attack any error, no matter how old it was. But he went on to add that there are some errors that are too ancient to patronize. If I might adopt his observation, and adapt it to make a similar point, I would like to do so. To extend Chesterton's point, I admit that there is something ludicrous about a hardshell baptist church with fifteen members in rural Arkansas holding to the view that the Roman Catholic Church is "a cult." But let us as Protestants deal with that sort of thing, let us police ourselves.

In the meantime, let me urge my friends in the communions of Rome or the East not to patronize in reverse. Not all Protestants are snake-handlers, or telehucksers. Let us acknowledge what the magisterial Reformation actually contributed. Get a map of the world, and look at it from halfway across the room. Grant that I am about to make a generalization, and that I cheerfully grant a host of variables that I am not mentioning here. That said, look at every nation that came into the Reformed faith at the Reformation, or was planted by heirs of the Reformed faith. You are looking at the First World. Look at those nations that remained pagan, at least up to the last generation. You are looking at the Third World. Ask yourself, when we have taken account of all the other contributing factors like language, climate, natural resources and so on, should the religious faith of the populace be considered a significant contributing factor as well? Of course, which is part of the reason Adam Smith predicted that North America was going to be wealthy and that South America, rich in resources, was not going to be.

I am not advocating simple causation, or simple-minded causation for that matter, as though I was trying to put the eight ball in the corner pocket. But cultural influences include the general faith of the people, and the fact remains that during their centuries Protestants built a world-class civilization, too significant to be patronized. I also acknowledge that apostasy is a very real danger for God's covenant people and that those who used to be deuteronomic head can and will become the deuteronomic tail -- unless they return to the faith of their fathers. And that goal is one of the central objects of our ministry here. I am not interested in a spitting context with Roman Catholics and Orthodox, but rather in calling Protestants back to their magisterial, historical, confessional heritage. But in the course of doing this, many (influenced by contemporary individualism and low ecclesiology) have misunderstood the nature of the task, and think wrongly that we are headed to Rome. As I have said elsewere, I went to Geneva and people thought I went to Rome -- simply because both are significantly east of Atlanta. Because of this misunderstanding and distortion, I am unfortunately in the position of having to spend time distinguishing what we are doing from Rome and Orthodoxy. But this is really a sideshow. The real action is really elsewhere.



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Kurtis Smith  Wednesday, March 29, 2006 7:41 pm
I don’t think this is the first time I’ve read in this space that, “The pope has no problem with evolution.” I presume this refers to JPII’s “more than a hypothesis” statement and not Benedict XVI’s more recent and blunt statements opposing scientific naturalism. First time or not, JPII or not, I disagree.[p]

In an address to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences in 1996 the pope said, “The subject of the origins of life deeply interests the Church because… revelation contains teaching concerning the nature and origins of man.” I encourage readers to click the above link, read the pope’s address, and decide for themselves whether or not he simply “has no problem with evolution.”[p]

As for me, I think Pope John Paul II held vitally important ground in his address, particularly by outright rejecting materialism and scientific naturalism, by affirming the immediate creation of the human soul by God, and by raising the crucial matter of epistemology, which C.S. Lewis stressed so well. AIG, Cal Thomas, and others criticized JPII for surrendering to materialism, which, as Thomas rightly pointed out, lies at the heart of Communism, and which the pope opposed at peril of his own life. The problem with critiques that make JPII out to be a materialist is that they simply aren’t true.[p]

Continued…[p]
Kurtis Smith  Wednesday, March 29, 2006 7:42 pm
On the other hand, I can’t say I think the Pope addressed what for me has been a principal sticking point with this sort of qualified position (some call it “compromise”) on the theory of evolution. I don’t know what JPII thought about the following issue: For me, ironically, the rub comes not so much on the question of the nature and origin of human life as it does on the question of the nature and origin of all death as the Bible explains it. Then, of course, follow all sorts of issues central to the gospel itself. I stand convinced the ultimate cosmological joke will be on human scientists like Eugenie Scott and Richard Dawkins, not on God, and my study of mathematics – of late, Combinatorics – continues making matters much, much worse (for scientists that is, not for God).[p]

It’s just as important to note what JPII didn’t say as it is to examine what he did say. What he didn’t say is that belief in any of several theories of evolution or rejection thereof is binding upon the faithful – except a faithful Catholic must believe what the Church has pronounced concerning “the truth about man.” For better or worse, the pope’s speech was no ex cathedra pronouncement, and I don’t think he gave away the gospel farm or embraced “modernism.” It seems fairer for a classical Protestant to regard him as Antichrist than a modernist.[p]

If you read it, note his several “indisputable points.”
John B. Brown  Thursday, March 30, 2006 1:58 am
I can see the difficulty of your position, trying to articulate a positive position for the magisterial reform as lived out in the CREC while having to say why you are different from the Apostolic churches on the one side and the snake handlers (or the TR's) on the other. But you have made a choice, a choice against the "Cathodox." You are willing to embrace the snake handler as someone within your fold, to be disciplined by folks like yourself, but not the Cathodox, except maybe in the distant postmill future in which a council of protestant cats somehow keeps themselves herded together enough to formally condemn the Cathodox. The details seem a bit fuzzy to be acting now like it is a sure enough thing that its actions can be anticipated and lived out in our day-today life now. Shoot first, trial later? It may not be possible to discuss this sort of thing without a big reaction, but side issues such as broad claims about the hearts of Mexicans or identification of power with godliness could be avoided. I'm not sure the "first world-third world" dichotomy works all that well, anyway- its a pretty broad brush and it would probably have not identified God's chosen people too well through history. Israel didn't project power all that well relative to Egypt, Babylon, Syria, Persia, Greece, Rome, etc., yet we believe that was where God was forging his people.
Xon Hostetter  Thursday, March 30, 2006 2:11 am
Mr. Brown, to even suggest that Wilson's point about Protestants creating the "First World" is an equation of "power with godliness" makes me worry more about you than about Wilson. Wilson likes the First World, and you think this means he's just liking the powerful over the weak? Is it your view that this is the sole explanation for First World cultural dominance and prosperity? It's just the strong oppressing the weak?

I don't think Wilson is talking about "power" in this sense at all. Perhaps you think that this is the actually the only explanation for First World prosperity, whether Wilson realizes it or not? But then, like I said, I wonder where you would get such an idea as that?
Philip  Thursday, March 30, 2006 2:25 am
I applaud your efforts to try and recall Protestants to confessional, magisterial reformation, but here is the problem. There is no confessional magisterial reformation. The reformation rejected the God given Magisterium, hence 36,000 denominations (no authority structure anymore). To a MUCH lesser extent, so did EO, but this is a different issue, and hence the numerous EO Churches. The only confessions Protestants hold to are the Apostles Creed, Nicene Creed, Chalcedon Creed (sometimes), and the Scriptures. However, everyone of those was given to us in a Council of the Church Magisterium, which always taught that it had authority over personal interpretation. Why accept some decisions of the Magisterium, but not others? At the minimum, accept the first 7 ecumenical councils that the EO and Rome agree on. Some may accuse you of heading towards Rome, instead of Geneva, I suggest, why not go to Rome? Yes, its a sick Church, but it has the Holy Spirit and the Fullness of the Christian Faith in a way no Protestant Church does. Rome will get better because of this, but it still won't change who she is.
John B. Brown  Thursday, March 30, 2006 2:26 am
Xon, I think you ought to read both the original post and mine again. As to why I think the first world is the first world, and why the third is the third, I actually didn't and haven't expressed any reasons. My point was merely that identifying the third world with the Cathodox and the First with Protestanism would not really prove the point even were it true. I certainly do not think it is true in the sense that it defends Protestantism. I think a stronger argument could be made that the forces that made the first world: Strong Nationalism, Military aggressiveness, willingness to exploit labor without traditional restraints, etc, were also the forces that fed the growth of protestantism: allowing the german princes to resist the political forces that restrained there action, allowing the confiscation of Church properties in England and the enrichment of a new noble class whose existence depended on the success of the reformation, rebellion of a set of french nobles against the french monarchy, resistence of the native against the internationalist, preference for the self against the other, etc. So, I would not give a causitive role to protestantism except as it blessed the other societal changes and salved the consciences of those who were instrumenting them and so insulated them from the social teachings of the past, such as those limiting the use of private property when it interfered with the public good, and the care of the indigent and poor, etc.
John B. Brown  Thursday, March 30, 2006 2:33 am
I can't let my last entry stand as it was, with only negatives attributed to the first world. Openess to new ideas, broad and universal education, a vision of Man as master of creation, boldness of vision and a rejection of limitations to human achievement are also imprtant parts of the picture.
Douglas Wilson  Thursday, March 30, 2006 3:12 am
Kurt, my point was not that JPII was a materialistic evolutionist, simply that he had accomodated with the theory in unsavory ways, just as many in the Protestant camp have done, trying to have it both ways. But I can appreciate teachers who get this wrong (e.g. C.S. Lewis, one of my favorite teachers). The problem is caused by this accommodation with evolution coupled with claims about the papal teaching office. On the question of creation and natural science, the Catechism of the Catholic Church refers to "many scientific studies which have splendidly enriched our knowledge of the age and dimensions of the cosmos, the development of life-forms and the appearance of man" (283). No, they haven't.
John B. Brown  Thursday, March 30, 2006 3:20 am
Xon, Perhaps a better way to make my point would be to do some word substitution:"But cultural influences include the general faith of the people, and the fact remains that during their centuries "the Greeks and Romans" built a world-class civilization, too significant to be patronized." Would any of us see this as an inditement of Israel as having the true faith? Would we, like Gibbon, attribute the Dark Ages to Christianity, ignoring the inconvernient barbarian invasions? One last thing, I don't think its showing Pastor Wilson proper respect to contract his point to "Wilson likes the first world." I think there is more depth to what Pastor Wilson is saying. I doubt he applauds our addictions to libertinism and abdication. I think he likes our power given by knowledge and social organization as compared with the corruption of the Mexican government (a very anti-Catholic institution, by the way) and etc. The questions still remain: what does it all mean? If one does not want to discount ancient Israel, one needs to be careful. None the less, I feel I have distracted this Blog long enough from its intended goals. To those I have offended, please try to understand that it is difficult for me to not answer some of the charges against the Cathodox, and attribute defects in manners or style to this desire and not to antipathy towards any of you.
Douglas Wilson  Thursday, March 30, 2006 3:21 am
John, I am curious about your use of Cathodox, when the two parties there are laboring under the burden of mutual excommunications that have lasted about a thousand times around the sun. And when I read the EO perspective, they would rather identify Catholicism and Protestantism as the Mutt and Jeff of the West. As Clendenin put it in Eastern Orthodox Christianity, "But it is also a gross error, for the religious and political history, theology and worship, and entire frame of reference of Orthodoxy are all very different from Catholicism. Indeed, from the Orthodox perspective, Protestantism and Catholicism are simply opposite sides of the same coin, and much more similar to each other than either is to Orthodoxy" (p. 15). So I think the real amalgam ought to be Cathotant, or Protolic.
John B. Brown  Thursday, March 30, 2006 3:29 am
Pastor Wilson, I've been taught, both 20 some years ago and more recently, that the RCC considers the EO to be valid Churches with valid orders and sacraments. At times the EO churches have not returned this regard, although by EO standards this cannot be seen as a "slam dunk." An example is the response of respect given by Eo authorities during the crusades to eucharistic processions performed by the latins. From the RCC side, the excommunications were lifted at the Council of Florence. It is not a clean picture: they do not recognize the "fully developed" papacy, and the councils which occurred after the schism, and yet they are still considered "true churches." This is perhaps an example of how Catholic theology often works- we know things by experience of their reality rather than by prediction arrising from a set of theorems. The RCC experiences the EO churches as true Churches, and so views the schism "postmillenially if you will- a tempory squabble which is a scandal but not a lethal injury.
I agree that EO folks see us westerners as the same thing. Unless it leads to anything concrete, I don't know what to make of this. It may be simplistic, but just telling us not to "be so western" doesn't help me much.
John B. Brown  Thursday, March 30, 2006 4:00 am
Douglas, "Cathodox" is also a neologism coined over at the Crowhill site out of convenience, as there is so much common ground and experience there among the "Cathodox" that such a term seemed to be needed. There is also a lot of Eo/RC fighting going on over there, so all is not harmony and light, of course.

http://crowhill.net/blog/
Jane Dunsworth  Thursday, March 30, 2006 4:23 am
Not to start a "dispute over words," but "Cathodox" was probably coined by a lady who (like me) is a Prot former denizen of Crowhill, before Crowhill was ever brought into being. In those days, Greg K. (Mr. Crowhill) and she and I were all denizens of Ligonier Ministries' now defunct "Renewing Your Mind" forums, and were engaged in the Protestant/Catholic/Orthodox discussions there. Cathodox became a very handy usage for the common ground reasons you cite. The coinage was almost accidental -- I first remember seeing it in a private e-mail from this lady (who is gifted at and given to clever usages of words) to myself, and was taken enough by it to start using it on the Net. When Mr. K. started up Crowhill, it spread to there. Funny how these things spread!
Frank Turk  Thursday, March 30, 2006 4:36 am
I have to admit that when Doug Wilson writes stuff like this in this way, I am ashamed that I ever argue with him.

Not so ashmaed that I will stop arguing, but ashamed enough to keep from messing up his argument right now.

Symeon Jekel  Thursday, March 30, 2006 5:22 am
It may be simplistic, but just telling us not to "be so western" doesn't help me much.



It means ((Augustine + Aquinas + Anselm) - (John of Damascus + Palamas))



This is the official eastern definition of it :)



But the provincialism in the statement comes from the fact that many apparent westerners would not meet this test of westernism.



Which is why I try to focus on those westerners that nobody can deny are Orthodox as models for mutual agreement. Bede, Patrick, St. Martin of Tours etc.





Kathryn Morkunas  Thursday, March 30, 2006 5:58 am
Mr. Wilson wrote, "let me urge my friends in the communions of Rome or the East not to patronize in reverse." This is well stated and I concur wholeheartedly. It is Christ's commandment that we love one another (Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant). Yet I struggle as I find myself sitting at a great and glorious banquet feasting on riches that I never thought imaginable as a Reformed Protestant and I see my starving friends scrambling for the abundance that I enjoy, searching for true substance. This secures my compassion and I very simply want to share. Please accept my apology if I have offended.


Kurtis Smith  Thursday, March 30, 2006 6:12 am
Pastor Wilson: I won’t belabor the pope-as-evolutionist thing too much because it was a minor point (actually more of a slapjab) in your original post, but before I address some of the substance of the rest of your argument (since Frank won’t), I have a couple more questions.[p]

If JPII’s no materialist, then what’s the problem? From first saying “the pope has no problem with evolution,” you now retreat to saying he “accomodated with the theory in unsavory ways.” Okay, putting it that way, I not only share your concern but tend to agree – up to a point. Please, do explain what you mean by “trying to have it both ways?” Let me get more specific:[p]

That quote from the CCC causes me unease on the question of “age.” Are you prepared to make an argument for the dogmatic necessity of Christians holding to a young Earth Creationist view?[p]

The quote also causes me unease on the issues of “development of life-forms” and most importantly, “the appearance of man.” Would you argue that believing God creating man and animals “according to their kinds” the way Ken Ham would explain it must be held by Christians, lest we accommodate evolution in unsavory ways?[p]

Aside from those issues, I don’t think there’s any doubt that scientific studies have “splendidly enriched our knowledge of the dimensions of the cosmos, the development of life forms…” and countless other things; although, I don’t think the practical benefits or future progress rest upon evolutionary dogma.
Douglas Wilson  Thursday, March 30, 2006 7:34 am
Kurt, saying that he has accomodated with the theory is not a retreat. The Christian world is full of people who "have no problem" with evolution, seeing how they believe that it actually happened. They don't believe it happened by itself, but they believe it happened, and hence have no problem with it. Now this is not a problem with me in terms of catholicity and fellowship. I can enjoy fellowship with a theistic evolutionist that I believe will be with me in heaven forever, and I don't even assert that he will go to heaven in incremental steps. But would I take that same man and make him the biology or theology instructor for my kids in our Christian school? Not on your life. Still less would I want to acknowledge him as the Supreme Teacher in the Church.
Dave Houf  Thursday, March 30, 2006 7:37 am
It is refreshing to see some serious discussion/debate on such issues. Refreshing, because I've noticed that often RC/EO opinions, theologians, liturgy, etc are categorically dismissed from discussions among the Reformed. I am yet again reminded of the need for humility and patience on the part of those who have come to Mt. Zion.
Kurtis Smith  Thursday, March 30, 2006 7:42 am
When people accuse us Protestants of being “disconnected from the ancient church,” they do so knowing many Protestant denominations accept the Apostles’ Creed, the Nicean Creed, and the Definition of Chalcedon. That’s not the main issue at all. The issue is always authority.[p]

Besides rejection, two things can be done with credal statements: They can be promulgated by an authority or accepted by others as authoritative. Which did the CREC do? We know the CREC didn’t promulgate the aformentioned statements, so we must assume the confederation accepted them. Now comes the question of authority.[p]

Was the CREC acknowledging an upstream and outside authority’s promulgation of those statements as reliable and binding statements of Christian belief? If so, what authority would that be? If not, the only other option would be for the CREC to assume on its own authority the right to either reject or receive those credal statements as authoritative and binding upon members of the confederation.[p]

Pastor Wilson rejects the “papal teaching office” (an office holding ultimate authority), and I presume he rejects it on biblical grounds. Now, what biblical grounds are there for the ultimate authority of the teaching office of the CREC? And if the teaching office of the CREC isn’t “ultimate,” what biblical basis does it have for binding the consciences of men?[p]

By the way, regardless of how one parses practical application of that “binding” across different categories of people, the statements apply not just to CREC elders but to the whole world.[p]
John B. Brown  Thursday, March 30, 2006 8:15 am
Jane- thanks for the true history of "Cathodox." I wish I could have read the old RYM forums, as I've heard much about them.
Symeon- Now that was helpful. I'll see what I can glean out of that.
Douglas-Thanks for the forum and the interaction.
Christopher Witmer  Thursday, March 30, 2006 10:29 am
Anyone who finds this thread to be of interest might find this article in First Things interesting as well:
"To Be a Christian College"
http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0604/articles/jacobs.html
B. Schaefer  Thursday, March 30, 2006 12:17 pm
Regarding the term “Cathodox” --- I don’t pretend or presume to speak for the Church, but I believe the quote from Clendenin’s book (which Pastor Wilson quoted earlier--- “…from the Orthodox perspective, Protestantism and Catholicism are simply opposite sides of the same coin, and much more similar to each other than either is to Orthodoxy") hits the nail on the head. For those confused by this statement, because of the seeming “common ground” between EO and RC, I would recommend studying the Orthodox Church’s understanding of salvation, the atonement, redemption, and the Cross. You’ll find much more common ground between Prot and RC on the questions of “Why did Christ have to die?” and a radically different understanding among EO.

Robbie McBroom  Thursday, March 30, 2006 1:31 pm
Kurtis,
Fortunately, the RCC can't just take "their" creeds and go home. I don't think the issue is authority, but rather positioning. Which, at least in this context, is just another word for pride. It's an ecclesiastical version of Lewis'"chronological snobbery". There is a significant difference between saying, "You're not using that compass properly; you know like our fathers showed us", and "Hey, that's my compass, give it back." The RCC is not the True Church but it is a part of it, and so it goes with us. There is no POPE in TEAM as it were.
The third paragraph of your post is an ambiguous word mince. The CREC is submitting to the "ultimate" authority of the Protestant Church in history. And I would contend that by doing so they become a part of that authority. They lead in all submission, as a father leads his family by submitting to God's Word. Yet your charge against them looks like some sort of "rebellion by obedience" nonsense. I am bewildered how the CREC, placing itself under the creedal jurisdiction of the voice of the church down through the ages, can somehow be classified as the CREC assuming "its own authority". In other words, how can they simultaneously respect and reject authority?
Robbie McBroom  Thursday, March 30, 2006 1:31 pm
cont'd- Would this not also apply to the fledgling PCA in December of '73? Or maybe covenant succession is limited to large denominational splits. Or what about these few others:
http://homepage.mac.com/bjmora/rpdenom/Reflist.html
Will they too crash the True Church Party? I think they were invited.
Jane Dunsworth  Thursday, March 30, 2006 2:52 pm
"Cathodox" originated in the context of discussions over whether there is a single, visible, identifiable church organizational body of which one must be a part, in order to truly be a part of Christ's Church. Since Orthodox and Catholics agree on this point (that there is one, not which it is) and Protestants disagree, for the purposes of that particular line of discussion, it's an appropriate term. It was never intended to imply that there are not significant differences between the two on important matters.
Kathryn Morkunas  Thursday, March 30, 2006 3:00 pm
Schaefer, how true! When I first encountered the Orthodox view of the atonement I was galvanized! What joy to be freed from Anselm's idea of substitution. Catholics and Protestants will find it interesting to note that their view of the atonement did not exist for the first ELEVEN centuries of Christianity.
Kurtis Smith  Thursday, March 30, 2006 5:24 pm
I’m glad Robbie brought up “chronological snobbery,” a phrase Lewis used to indicate uncritical acceptance of new thinking over old or, as Robbie tries to apply it here, uncritical endorsement of old churches over new.[p]

All denominations must claim they go all the way back, so the issue of chronological “positioning” is moot. Far from doing otherwise, Robbie’s statements demonstrate that the ultimate issue is indeed always authority:[p]

By what standard does Robbie declare the RCC part of the True Church? That statement assumes he knows what and where the True Church is and by what marks it can be identified. Show me the Lydian stone against which “true” and “false” may be discerned. Calvin had one. Do we?[p]

If Robbie believes creeds are like compasses, surely he must also believe in True North. Also, when my father showed me how a compass works, he also showed me how a broken one doesn’t.[p]

Robbie sees pride in “pope” but no “pope” in TEAM. Meanwhile, he detects no pride or presumption in claiming to discern “the voice of the church down through the ages,” in validating the CREC’s submission to the “ultimate authority of the Protestant Church in history” (whatever that is), or in dreaming up notions of “creedal jurisdiction” and the neat trick of becoming part of the very authority one obeys.[p]

Talk about an ambiguous word mince. It sounds like we have a pope of sorts in our midst after all. As they say in Rome, “Habemus papam!”
Wes Callihan  Thursday, March 30, 2006 6:18 pm
Kathryn, I appreciate that the EO view of the atonement is different from the Roman and Protestant one, but is it "radically" different? Athanasius says (On the Incarnation, par. 20), "Here, then, is the second reason why the Word dwelt among us, namely that having proved His Godhead by His works, He might offer the sacrifice on behalf of all (hyper panton), surrendering His own temple to death in place of all (anti panton), to settle man's account with death and free him from the primal transgression." Nor did Athanasius consider it "joy to be freed from the idea of [Anselmian] substitution" - for he says (par. 21), "Have no fear, then. Now that the common Savior of all has died on our behalf, we who believe in Christ no longer die, as men died aforetime, in fulfillment of the threat of the law." Sounds Anselmian. :)
Wes Callihan  Thursday, March 30, 2006 6:19 pm
(cont.) True, it's not the Roman or Reformed view of a debt of guilt but rather the debt of death. But, as Bradley Nassif says ("Three Views on Eastern Orthodoxy and Evangelicalism", pg. 46), "Clearly there is a place for an Athanasian approach to substitutionary, or perhaps better to say, "representative" atonement, through the incarnation, even if that approach differs from later Roman Catholic theories." And later (pg. 47) "whether or not all Orthodox agree that Christ's sacrifice "satisfied divine justice by propitiating the Father," what is incontestable is that the consensus of the patristic tradition interprets Christ, the new Adam, as "representative" of humanity (by living, dying, and rising on behalf of the whole human race), and that his perfect sacrifice was offered "for our sins." On that there is no disagreement between Orthodox and Evangelicals.
Robbie McBroom  Friday, March 31, 2006 12:24 am
{I’m glad Robbie brought up “chronological snobbery,” a phrase Lewis used to indicate uncritical acceptance of new thinking over old or, as Robbie tries to apply it here, uncritical endorsement of old churches over new.}

You got me there, Kurt. How about “reverse chronological snobbery”? Does that do anything for you? I guess I should have just said “plain old snobbery” and left that whole Lewis part out. I just figured, since it was labeled the issue, you would let an Appeal to Authority slide.

{All denominations must claim they go all the way back, so the issue of chronological “positioning” is moot. Far from doing otherwise, Robbie’s statements demonstrate that the ultimate issue is indeed always authority:}

No, positioning would be a moot point if all denominations did in fact go back; a-a-all the way back. Not early but ancient. From a logical standpoint I agree, they must claim it. And that’s what they do. I like to call it positioning.

{By what standard does Robbie declare the RCC part of the True Church? That statement assumes he knows what and where the True Church is and by what marks it can be identified.}

The New Testament Standard. Paul addresses the Ephesian Church (1:4-6), the WHOLE Ephesian church, as the elect. That statement “assumes that he knows what and where the true church is and by what marks it can be identified.” Does this make him the “new pope”?
The Clinging Vine  Friday, March 31, 2006 12:25 am
Depends upon the evangelical, though. I do not believe for one second that Christ lived, died, and rose "on behalf of the whole human race", but only those the Father gave Him (John 17:6, 18:9). He was named "Jesus", according to the angel, because He would save His people from their sins (Matthew 1:21).
Robbie McBroom  Friday, March 31, 2006 12:26 am
{Robbie sees pride in “pope” but no “pope” in TEAM. Meanwhile, he detects no pride or presumption in claiming to discern “the voice of the church down through the ages,” in validating the CREC’s submission to the “ultimate authority of the Protestant Church in history” (whatever that is), or in dreaming up notions of “creedal jurisdiction” and the neat trick of becoming part of the very authority one obeys.}



Is it really more presumptuous to pay heed to the combined years of study and the remarkable unity produced from faithful but admittedly fallible men, or one man who claims infallibility and “assumes its own authority”? Creeds (credo) are boundaries of belief. I didn’t dream that up. “Dreams”, “notions” and “neat tricks”? Come on now.
kamelda  Friday, March 31, 2006 2:49 am
Kathryn, I read through this thread only after responding to the other (so I see that you are Eastern Orthodox). You say that idea of substitionary atonement did not exist for 11 centuries.


This is from Mathetes' epistle to Diognetus (chapter 9), written around 150 BC.


"But when our wickedness had reached its
height, and it had been clearly shown that its reward, punishment and death, was impending over us; and when the time had come which God had before appointed for manifesting His own kindness and power, how the one love of God, through exceeding regard for men, did not regard us with
hatred, nor thrust us away, nor remember our iniquity against us, but showed great long-suffering, and bore with us, He Himself took on Him the burden of our iniquities, He gave His own Son as a ransom for us, the holy One for transgressors, the blameless One for the wicked, the righteous One for the unrighteous, the incorruptible One for the corruptible, the immortal One for them that are mortal. For what other
thing was capable of covering our sins than His righteousness? By what other one was it possible that we, the wicked and ungodly, could be justified, than by the only Son of God? O sweet exchange! O unsearchable
operation! O benefits surpassing all expectation! that the wickedness of
many should be hid in a single righteous One, and that the righteousness of
One should justify many transgressors!"

kamelda  Friday, March 31, 2006 3:07 am
hmmm well I was doing the dishes and was suddenly gripped with the sensation I had said 'BC' rather than 'AD'.... Sorry.
Wes Callihan  Friday, March 31, 2006 9:21 am
Clinging Vine, although I happen to agree with you, that's beside the point. My point was that the EO and evangelical views of the atonement are not "radically" different in terms of whether they see it as substitutionary or not, and that (as Kamelda pointed out) a substitutionary view did indeed exist throughout the history of the church (Eastern included).
Symeon Jekel  Monday, April 03, 2006 4:19 am
RE: Anselm and theories of the atonement.



Anselm builds his discussion around the idea of an infinite offense to God's honor and the impropriety of 'forgiving' without some satisfaction being paid to re-establish the honor.



Other older quotes often used to make the point that substitutionary atonement is ancient really are simply emphasizing the Pauline priniciple of being 'in Adam' v. being 'in Christ the new Adam.'



A lot of scary things become more plausible once we accept the Anselmian premise. Like the idea that our problem is God rather than ourselves. That the enemy is some theoretical balance rather than the evil one Himself. And, the plausibility of considering the entire matter without much reference to the Trinity and especially the Holy Spirit.

Perry Robinson  Monday, April 03, 2006 4:55 am
To the Reformd out there, the three views book is pretty poor. The Orthodox representatives just aren't familiar enough with Protestant theology and Horton doesn't know jack. If you want to understand Orthodox theology you have to get past the popular works and dig in to the major thinkers-Maximus the Confessor, Basil & Nyssa, Gregory Palamas and Mark Eugenikos. Probably the best single book is Farrell's, Free Choice in St. Maximus the Confessor. You could try Richard Haugh's, Photius and the Carolingians, Michel Barnes, The Power of God: Dunamis in Gregory of Nyssa's Trinitarian Theology, Bradshaw, Aristotle East and West, Farrell's trans., The Disputation between Maximus and Pyrrus, Palamas' Triads or the Capita. Meyendorff, Christ in Eastern Christian Thought. THEN pick up Lossky.
Perry Robinson  Monday, April 03, 2006 4:59 am
The passage from Athanasius doesn't teach the penal or satisfaction model. It only teaches that the cost of redemption was death and this was because death was the weapon of the enemy. (Heb 2:14ff, Rev 1:18) Christ recapitualtes death in himself so that now all die because he died. All men are united to the humanity of Christ, which is why all are resurrected. Christ defeats death by maintaining the unity of human nature in himself by the unity of it with his divine person. The punishment is done by the unjust rulers and the devil, not the Father. The Son is not submitted to and determined by the divine will-he goes to his death freely. For the Orthodox to think the former implies Monothelitism and Arianism.
John B. Brown  Tuesday, April 04, 2006 1:35 am
There was an interesting blog entry on Al Kimel's site which quotes Louis Bouyer making the argument that Catholics and Orthodox are not in schism. This is similar to what I've been taught as an Catholic, but by a person whose education and profundity makes his words more worth considering. Here is a link to the Bouyer entry on Kimel's Blog: http://catholica.pontifications.net/?p=1559