Going Splash in the Sea of Japan Print
Culture and Politics - Sex and Culture
Written by Douglas Wilson   
Monday, 10 December 2012 11:48

One other point needs to be made about sexual egalitarianism, but let me, if I may, move it (somewhat) away from N.T. Wright's support of women's ordination.

We need to address, in a more general way, the idea that milder feminism (in those manifestations which are for some reason palatable to evangelicals) is "not about the gospel." But of course it is about the gospel.

In the first place, milder feminism is like being a little bit pregnant. Two friends who haven't seen each other in a while meet up for lunch, and one of them delightedly asks, "Oh! Are you expecting?" The reply is never anything like "mildly." Anybody who believes that concessions in this area (ordination, definitions of marriage, etc.) will not be followed up by further demands, increasingly strident, until we are all in the madhouse together, is someone who has not been paying attention. He has Attention Deficit Theological Disorder (ADTD), a condition which used to get you booted from seminary, but which is now worth a couple of scholarships.

Second, the gospel is all about the reconstitution of humanity in Christ. That is the whole point of it. Christ is the new man, and the Church is His bride, and the Church which was created by the gospel is the model given to Christian women as they seek to understand how to relate to their husbands. The right relation of husband and wife is one of the most profound expressions of the gospel to be found anywhere (Eph. 5:22-33). The image of God included male and female in the first place (Gen. 1:27), sin and rebellion defaced that image (Gen. 4:19), and in Christ it is now being restored (Gen. 3:15). Can I get an amen?

Humanity is of course exalted by this, which means that Christ and the Church are not flattened by it. In the same way, the Christian faith exalts women, which is not the same thing as flattening the roles of male and female. This is a restoration of male and female -- which is a Christocentric maturation of masculinity and femininity both. The work of the gospel is a very different thing than trying to turn a first-rate woman into a third-rate man -- which, when it succeeds, also succeeds in turning second-rate men into fifth-rate men.

Pomosexuality is the issue of our day, a heresy I have addressed a number of times elsewhere (e.g. here). But ironically, just yesterday I saw a Facebook photo of N.T. Wright, with a blackboard inscription behind him. That text said something like we have to stop reading the Bible with 20th century eyes in order to answer 16th century questions, and we need to start reading it with 1st century eyes in order to answer 21st century questions. Clever, but staying out of Hell is what Jesus would call a perennial question (Luke 12:5), not a 16th century one. But even on its own terms, the challenge fails. The pressing 21st century question is how to avoid melting the whole world down in the morph cauldron of sexual identity confusion, the one we have heated up by our evolutionary assumptions. And what I see the trendy regiment of the new scholarship doing is not answering 21st century questions so much as capitulating to 21st century challenges. You can give me another amen if you want.

A couple last things and I am done. I got some feedback on my earlier use of the metaphor "peer-reviewed circle jerk," and the feedback was along the lines of "wasn't that a bit over the top, even for you?" This being a reasonable question, I wanted to mention just a couple of things about it, including my view that the answer is no. Chesterton once said that delicate euphemisms are often employed to whitewash sin, while earthier expressions often express a right view of morality. Well, here I am with Chesterton again, shoulder to shoulder. We are living in a time when there will soon be (if there isn't already) a circle jerk "community" in the seminaries, and they will soon be pressing to have their sexual identity and choices accepted by the rest of us. As they tell their story, emerging from the painful darkness of the closet, and the withering discrimination of irritated roommates, and all the racism if we can work that in, they will assume the hangdog demeanor of those who have been greatly put-upon. The cue will be taken up by the usual suspects who are in charge of public discourse, and the last vestiges of Victorianism will then be called upon to silence the earthy critics, and to rally around the tolerance monkeys who have embraced the sin.

Okay, last thing. In this thread I have been patted on the head a few times and told that nobody is listening to me anyway, and all I am doing is building polemical North Korean rockets to go splash in the Sea of Japan with. While the sentiment that I am actually a nobody is a view I can endorse with enthusiasm, I will nevertheless go as far as to say that googleanalytics is being kind enough to inform me that thousands of folks in the UK are finding this discussion to be of some interest. And so here is a little shout-out to all my British evangelical readers. I really like you guys. Taking one thing with another, your ribald newspapers over there have trained you not to be scared of things like metaphors.



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Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, December 10, 2012 12:42 pm
Pr Wilson wrote:
In this thread I have been patted on the head a few times and told that nobody is listening to me anyway, and all I am doing is building polemical North Korean rockets to go splash in the Sea of Japan with.
Not sure if this is talking about me, but if it is, my point isn't that no one is watching, but that people are watching, and you won't get people thinking of moving to N. Korea by lobbing missiles into the Sea of Japan.
Arwen B.  - What a chore...  Monday, December 10, 2012 12:47 pm
I wonder if it would work to come at this from a different angle.

For example:
If we grant that God is our Father, and we, his children, it seems only natural that he would give us chores to do.

Suppose one of those chores is preaching, teaching, and leading.

Suppose further that the chore of preaching, teaching, and leading is given to His sons. This doesn't mean that His daughters are incapable of doing this chore, it just means that He wants His sons to do it.

And if He wants His sons to do a given chore, then His sons should do that chore. The sons shouldn't be allowed to shirk their chores just because their sisters are willing to do the chores for them.

And His daughters should let their brothers do the chores the Father has assigned to them, even if the sisters think (as sisters are wont to do) that they could do a better job than their brothers.

Of course you would have to get the feminists to admit that preaching, teaching, and leading are a) chores, and b) assigned to the brothers. Much of the problem stems from the idea that positions of leadership are necessarily positions of power. Convince them that these positions are a chore and they will drop all attempt to usurp them.
Matthew N. Petersen  Monday, December 10, 2012 1:02 pm
I think there may be issues regarding what ordination to the ministry is--perhaps with R.C. hang-overs influencing our perspective. If ordination is something greater than baptism, it is only natural that women should be ordained--for there is now neither male nor female. But if ordination is less than baptism, if the ordained have a Josephine duty to guard the greater, Mary, if the ordained have an angelic ministry to their judges, the Bride of Christ, it isn't so clear that women should be ordained.

There is still the issue that the ordained ministry is a public institution that shows role of men, but there is, at least for Protestants, no similar public recognition of the place of women; but I'm not at all convinced that issue cannot be resolved.
Steve Perry  - Origins of this slippery slope?  Monday, December 10, 2012 1:30 pm

Wilson- “the key to world history is right worship.”

Each Lord’s Day, as we are lifted into the heavenly s, into the presence of the angles, there is only one “Priestly” vestment required in worship, which has been abandoned in our modernity. For the first 1900 years, the church has understood the potency of this symbol as it reflects acknowledgement of God’s edenic authority structure and necessity of covering mans glory, as both men and women come before the Lord as His priests. Paul goes to great lengths to explain the theology of this vestment and finishes by saying, “but if one is inclined to be contentious, we have no other practice, nor have the churches of God.” It is sad that the world has crept into the churches liturgical service and defined what this symbol means, and how we have embraced their teaching, as we see through new eyes. Is there any chance that there might be a correlation between sitting back and watching Eve take off her priestly historical vestment/hat in worship, and where we find the church today?

Leithart - “Priests of Malachi’s day were rebuked for failing to observe the details of the sacrificial rituals, and the God we worship is still the God of details and is still indignant when we reject His commandments for the sake of our traditions.”
Jonathan  Monday, December 10, 2012 7:58 pm
But don't lots of people watch the North Korean missiles dropping into the Sea of Japan? The question isn't whether or not people pay attention to the missiles, it's whether the missiles cause people to take the one firing them any more seriously than they did before.
Jonathan  - re: What a chore...  Monday, December 10, 2012 8:17 pm
Arwen B. wrote:
Much of the problem stems from the idea that positions of leadership are necessarily positions of power. Convince them that these positions are a chore and they will drop all attempt to usurp them.

I'm quite interested by this angle. The issue, of course, is that these particular positions of leadership are wielded as positions of power in the vast majority of cases. (This is especially true in my church.) There isn't any serious push for women's ordination in my church, but what disgruntlement does exist almost entirely springs up from the outsized power the men in ordained positions take (And, in fact, the privileges that non-ordained men are allowed to take simply because, as men, they may be ordained at some point in the future). If ordained men treated their positions as a place of service and a chore and gave up the right to power that they often assume is theirs, then that might allow Arwen's argument to get some traction.
Matt Weber  Tuesday, December 11, 2012 7:05 am
It will always be a position of power in the context of the church. In the Catholic church, there is a serious sacrifice to it because priests can't marry--perhaps this blunts the drive for women priests in the RCC--but other churches don't have that requirement. Also, one wouldn't describe being in military combat as a position of power and influence, but even so you have women that want to do it for some reason.

In other news, this:

Quote:
...the one we have heated up by our evolutionary assumptions.


made me laugh out loud. Evolutionary theory tells us a lot of things, but sexual egalitarianism is not among them.

katecho  Tuesday, December 11, 2012 7:20 am
Doug wrote:
Quote:
You can give me another amen if you want.

Amen, and amen!
Steve Perry  Tuesday, December 11, 2012 2:16 pm
Greetings Katecho, I appreciate your comments and think we have the same theological leanings. As far as this overall topic, if you have time, can I get your take on my comment made above. If not, no problem.
Phil Jones  Tuesday, December 11, 2012 7:21 am
I'm just glad that someone believes all of the Word of God is authoritative not just the parts they agree with. I never thought of you as a nobody. I can lay claim to that title with a great deal more evidence. Vulgar speech is just that vulgar and sometimes it's appropriate, sometimes not. One of the charms of the English language is that it contains a great many vulgarities and is often scatological and profane. Short of blaspheme it can be used to emphasize a point. Like, it really hurts to hit my thumb with a hammer and "Aw, shucks." really doesn't say what I feel.
katecho  Tuesday, December 11, 2012 7:25 am
Matt Weber wrote:
Quote:
this ... made me laugh out loud. Evolutionary theory tells us a lot of things, but sexual egalitarianism is not among them.

Matt is not one to pass up an opportunity to heap ridicule, but Doug was actually referring to the role of evolutionary assumptions with regard to sexual identity confusion, not egalitarianism. You know, things like the homosexuality gene.
Matt Weber  Tuesday, December 11, 2012 8:31 am
Quote:
Matt is not one to pass up an opportunity to heap ridicule


I've been told that is the thing to do in these situations.

Quote:
Doug was actually referring to the role of evolutionary assumptions with regard to sexual identity confusion, not egalitarianism. You know, things like the homosexuality gene.


Even worse. Evolution offers no support for anything other than basic sexual dimorphism. Specifically, the gay gene has nothing to do with evolution, being instead a reaction to the erroneous belief that people make some kind of choice to have homosexual inclinations. AFAIK no such gene has ever been located, but if it were it would present a serious problem for evolution, as it would be the height of maladaptiveness and would have been expected to be eliminated within a few generations.

If Christians were savvy, they would learn how to use evolution against liberals. The excesses of evolutionary assumptions tend to be a hardening of the role of nature, not a denial of nature entirely. Think Nazi Germany and eugenics, rather than a sort of Marxist flattening. It's no coincidence that the USSR famously denied evolutionary theory via Lysenkoism.
katecho  Tuesday, December 11, 2012 8:45 am
Wait. Does Weber mean to say that he doesn't believe in the homosexuality gene that causes them to "be that way"? Gasp!

Unfortunately, Matt couldn't bring himself to acknowledge that he misread Doug. Evolution was not mentioned by Doug in support of egalitarianism, but rather for its assumptions which promote sexual identity confusion. The homosexual gene theory is just one manifestation of such a paradigm.
katecho  Tuesday, December 11, 2012 8:47 am
One thing has become clear in this recent topic, indeed with all of the topics Doug tackles, and that is the pressing need for "intellectual empathy".

We have a bandwagon of faithful contributors who have taken the high road and have kindly shown us the way. Here are some examples of what true intellectual empathy should look like:

Matthew N. Petersen wrote on Sunday, December 09, 2012 9:08 pm
Quote:
Do you really think you are in the place for a charge? That if you charge your foes will see their stupidity, and repent? Because I'm confident that's nonsense. Your opponents already think Christians, in general,are orthodox Christians in particular are stupidly and irrationally dogmatic. Why confirm their suspicions?


Once we put on the eyes of empathy, as Matthew has helped us to do, we can suddenly see that Doug is stupidly and irrationally dogmatic. Additionally, his reasoning is nonsense. With care and affinity, we discover that all of the worst stereotypes against the orthodox faith are embodied and incarnated in the form of Douglas Wilson. Doug is an accuser of the brethren. How stupid and irrational is that?

Matthew N. Petersen wrote on Monday, December 10, 2012 5:49 pm
Quote:
In the main, Wright is on our side, and thus this series of attacks amounts to friendly fire. It may be--and indeed I believe it is--an important issue, but we should be careful we don't start attacking our friends, but that we rather settle our internal disputes peacefully. Brother goeth to battle with brother, and that before unbelievers.


The empathy is overflowing with intellectual caution here. Everything Doug has been up to lately is a series of attacks. You know, like wolves do with sheep. That's how true empathy for Doug's position has called it. Doug, the attacker of the brethren. Empathy and affinity (of the intellectual sort) reveals that Doug has gone to battle with his brothers, but not only this, he has done so before unbelievers, because Doug's blog is a den of unbelief. How can Doug stand to be in the same room with himself? Intellectual empathy wants to know.

Matt Weber wrote on Monday, December 10, 2012 7:24 am
Quote:
You're spending a lot of time on this question of tone. But since you've gotten a significant amount of pushback on the tone, even from people who agree with you on the merits, maybe the tone really is a mistake. If Jesus wants to scold NT Wright or whoever else, then clearly he can because he's Jesus. You aren't Jesus, and your tactics aren't working. What is that saying about doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

Maybe it is instructive that you view your opponents as Middle-Earthian orcs. You have this weird Manichean view of yourself as locked in a climactic battle against the Forces of Darkness, hell bent on destroying Western Civilization. Isn't that just a little nutty? Is that really what you get from the Bible?


The empathy for Doug is like a cozy warm blanket. Note the nuanced declaration that Doug views all of his opponents as orcs. We can all see that now, can't we? But it doesn't stop there. Doug is instructed to realize that he isn't Jesus. Intellectual empathy is a tender patronizing empathy. Aside from Doug's complete failure, Matt reassures Doug that his tactics just aren't working.
Matt wraps things up with a helpful diagnosis that Doug is weird and nutty. It is so refreshing to see someone finally take the high road around here for once. Three cheers for empathy! The intellectual kind.


Doug is not the only one to benefit. Several others, including myself, have been served our own scoop of intellectual empathy:
Matt Weber wrote on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 6:07 am
Quote:
Katecho, you're nuts. I'm not even going to bother, as you are clearly incapable of understanding what is being said. But keep doubling down on the ridicule. One day you'll win!

Notice that true intellectual empathy does not even bother. The diagnosis is clear: I'm nuts (just like Doug). Therefore, I am unworthy of being bothered with. It may have something to do with my complete inability to understand. But at least we know what intellectual empathy really looks like.

With such a marvelous display of intellectual empathy, the single most important take-away for Doug is that he is nothing but an attacker of the innocent, and he's a nutcase. Therefore Doug should cloth himself in shame and be silent. Guilt is the prescription. Guilt and silence.
Matthew N. Petersen  Tuesday, December 11, 2012 8:56 am
Matt: Don't feed the troll.
Matt Weber  Tuesday, December 11, 2012 9:19 am
I know I shouldn't, but I've never had a fan before. I'm not sure whether I should be flattered or disturbed by his obsession.
katecho  Tuesday, December 11, 2012 10:04 am
Obsession? Interesting. If we did a survey of Doug's last 30 posts on this blog (the ones which have multiple reader comments), who would we find to be the top two first posters? Obsession indeed.
katecho  Tuesday, December 11, 2012 9:11 am
We "trolls" are watching how Matthew and Matt treat Doug (in the name of their intellectual empathy). We are also watching how Doug has not treated them.
holmegm  - re:  Tuesday, December 11, 2012 10:06 am
katecho wrote:
Obsession? Interesting. If we did a survey of Doug's last 30 posts on this blog (the ones which have multiple reader comments), who would we find to be the top two first posters? Obsession indeed.


Had that same thought. For someone so sadly irrelevant and who makes no sense, they sure like hanging around him.
Matt Weber  Tuesday, December 11, 2012 11:10 am
I don't really understand the idea that people should only read and comment on things they agree with. That creates bubbles. Bubbles are bad. If you wish for a reminder of why, check the 2012 election results.

If you can find where I said Wilson is sadly irrelevant or makes no sense, then I gladly retract. I don't even agree with the post that he is a nobody. I'm a nobody, Wilson has some influence.
Matthew N. Petersen  Tuesday, December 11, 2012 12:27 pm
I'm with Matt here. I post because I think it's important and Pr. Wilson has some influence. I think his presentation in these posts is wrong, and probably drives people away from Christ, rather than drawing them to Him. But that doesn't mean I think he's stupid--indeed, I said that I think most people find people like him and me stupid (if you don't believe me, perhaps you should read the Huffington Post more often) and we shouldn't do things that confirm those stereotypes, at least not if we want to be winsome.
Brandon  - re:  Tuesday, December 11, 2012 12:30 pm
katecho wrote:
Obsession? Interesting. If we did a survey of Doug's last 30 posts on this blog (the ones which have multiple reader comments), who would we find to be the top two first posters? Obsession indeed.


Exactly. In this case, "obsession" is an adjective most suitably directed the other way. Petersen, for example, was so eager to comment a post or two back that he did so from his phone, and did so in a rather incoherent fashion.

Reminds one of an analogy regarding specks and logs.

Katecho's post was well taken, and it said what probably many readers have thought already but, in a non-obsessive way, haven't had the time to say, much less from an iphone.
Brandon  - re:  Tuesday, December 11, 2012 12:41 pm
Matthew N. Petersen wrote:
we shouldn't do things that confirm those stereotypes, at least not if we want to be winsome.


Katecho gave some samples of your winsome approach. Perfectly charming.

It's fine to comment on Doug's posts, but if you do so obsessively, as you have, don't accuse another commenter of "trolling" and expect to get no flak for it.

Anyways, you're replying to the periphery point.

The main point is that you have displayed intellectual empathy, so called, with grace and dignity, and I, and doubtless all the other readers, are thrilled you were able to communicate your critique so effectively through your own example.
Phil Jones  Tuesday, December 11, 2012 12:42 pm
I'm just glad that someone believes all of the Word of God is authoritative not just the parts they agree with. I never thought of you as a nobody. I can lay claim to that title with a great deal more evidence. Vulgar speech is just that vulgar and sometimes it's appropriate, sometimes not. One of the charms of the English language is that it contains a great many vulgarities and is often scatological and profane. Short of blaspheme it can be used to emphasize a point. Like, it really hurts to hit my thumb with a hammer and "Aw, shucks." really doesn't say what I feel.
Matt H.  - re:  Tuesday, December 11, 2012 12:45 pm
Matthew N. Petersen wrote:
Matt: Don't feed the troll.


I thought I had seen everything the internet has to offer, until I saw this. Matthew N. Petersen warning Matt Weber about trolls.

Thank you, gentlemen, for the early Christmas gift. I laughed out loud. Well played.
Matthew N. Petersen  Tuesday, December 11, 2012 4:03 pm
katecho wrote:
Once we put on the eyes of empathy, as Matthew has helped us to do, we can suddenly see that Doug is stupidly and irrationally dogmatic.
I would like to point out that this is a libelous slander, and I dispute it fiercely. It would seem that anyone could read my comment and see that I said that we all come across that way, not just Pr. Wilson. But the responses seem to show that katecho has a sympathetic audience, and people actually think his comment reflects what I said. But, and I repeat, it does not. His comment is simply slander.
John McNeely  Tuesday, December 11, 2012 6:37 pm
I have to say Matthew Petersen calling anyone a troll has to be the most laughable accusation I have ever seen. He adds insult to injury by denying Katecho's very accurate assessment of his conduct. Then consoles himself by characterizing the audience as biased.
Jonathan  Wednesday, December 12, 2012 4:14 am
I'll say, the commenting has taken a hard step in a certain direction under this post. I don't believe it's a good one. We could have a discussion/debate about specific issues, or we could have a discussion/debate about specific things people have said, or we could have a discussion/debate about general personalities and how we all feel about each other. In my experience, the third option virtually always leads nowhere.
Matt Weber  Wednesday, December 12, 2012 6:15 am
This thread has been useful for one thing though: demonstrating in real-time the problems with Wilson's approach to NT Wright and to rhetoric in general.
Tim Enloe  Wednesday, December 12, 2012 5:54 am
Speaking for myself, I don't care for the "circle jerk" and "Clown Car Review" remarks because while they do satirically get at a truth about some modes of academic discourse, on a mostly popular-level blog like this they are going to tend only to increase the popular level suspicion of intellectual rigor. And I don't think the satire is particularly helpful when, as is surely the case, many NSA students past and present read the blog. What are they to think of what they are being trained to do at the College only to find a trusted Pastor who helped found the College mocking that very thing merely because some unbelievers and some apparently waffling Christians misuse it? I question the usefulness of the rhetorical strategy of satire and mockery in this context. It goes along with what to me is a distorted take on the culture war, to the point where an ad for the College features a young punk looking kid demanding that some Horrific Slavering Monster dubbed "Secularism" (whose contours are defined mostly by reactionary caricatures) step out into the alley for a street fight. Highly, highly inappropriate for a context in which the recovery of serious, sober-minded academic activity is being advocated.

I've asked you this before, Pastor, but didn't get a satisfactory answer: Do we really want a new generation of Charles Finneys and Billy Sundays, only this time doing the anti-intellectual, culturally-retreatist, pulpit-pounding thing about Reformed doctrines and Christendom? The question answers itself. You know your Evangelical history. You've read Hatch and Murray on the decline of robust Christian culture in democratic America. We'll never dig out of the cultural hole we're in by following the very strategies that helped create the hole in the first place.
Douglas Wilson  - First Thing . . .  Wednesday, December 12, 2012 9:18 am
Morning, all. Nobody has done anything ban-worthy here, but I would like to encourage us all to watch the tone. Matt, you complain about libel, but I don't think that was what katecho was doing. At the same time, there is plenty to discuss on the merits. I will have a response to Tim's very reasonable question in a few minutes.
Douglas Wilson  - Second Thing . . .  Wednesday, December 12, 2012 9:28 am
Tim, there is a popular level suspicion of intellectual rigor out there, much to be lamented, but it is largely caused by regular folks who watch silly ideas (e.g. Marxism, evolution) get a free pass in respected intellectual circles. I think it is quite likely that those who tend to think this way might reconsider it if they see a rigorous intellectual case, with all the necessary fire, being mounted against those follies. The intellectual world needs to learn how to police its own ranks.

I would never dream of attacking intellectual rigor. Scripture says that we are to love the Lord our God with all our minds. But this is a very different thing than trying to love the Lord our God with all our lust for academic respectability (John 5:44).

I want to be be learned. I want to know. I want to love God with all my brains, and teach others to do the same. But I also want to live in such a way that Festus thinks my great learning has driven me bonkers (Acts 26:24).
Matthew N. Petersen  Wednesday, December 12, 2012 1:29 pm
Pr. Wilson,

I think where we're missing each other is that I think that people who are into bunk intellectual ideas think thy are being intellectual and rigorous. We may dispute whether they are, but given that they think they are being rigorous, an attack seems wrong-headed. Wouldn't a rigorous demonstration of the folly of their position be far better? Or, like I've said from the beginning, attacks with rigorous demonstrations of their folly? Otherwise, we just confirm their suspicions that we cannot think.
Matthew N. Petersen  Wednesday, December 12, 2012 10:09 am
I have no idea what else it could be called. You say your self that you are trying to sound bellicose. I question whether a bellicose strategy gain a victory, or will just reinforce stereotypes against us. For that I am accused of saying that the stereotypes apply to you. I have no idea how someone can make that claim, unless they are stupid, or malicious. I'd just ignore it, considering the source, but since a number of people are describing it as accurate...
John McNeely  Wednesday, December 12, 2012 11:25 am
Matthew Petersen... Based on your previous comments and the how they have revealed your lack of skill in reading comprehension I am afraid I may be wasting my time, but here goes.


First you stated, "Because I'm confident that's nonsense. Your opponents already think Christians, in general,are orthodox Christians in particular are stupidly and irrationally dogmatic. Why confirm their suspicions?"

Then attempted to defend yourself by,
"I question whether a bellicose strategy gain a victory, or will just reinforce stereotypes against us. For that I am accused of saying that the stereotypes apply to you. I have no idea how someone can make that claim, unless they are stupid, or malicious."

There is a difference between what you initially did and how you later characterized your actions. By asking "Why confirm their suspicions" you imply that Doug's actions are in fact the same as their stereotypes that you further described as "stupidly and irrationally dogmatic". This is a bit different than just questioning strategy. If you were questioning strategy you could have framed it more like a question meant to elicit an answer. Instead you framed the "question" in a way that leads to your preconceived conclusion. That conclusionm which is clear to all of us who read your comments on this blog, is that Wilson is "stupidly and irrationally dogmatic". Katecho then very clearly pointed out that your version of "intellectual empathy" is inconsistent as best. Then you called him a troll, obsessive, and finally implied that he was "stupid, or malicious". Once again confirming every point he made about you.
Tim Enloe  Wednesday, December 12, 2012 12:01 pm
Fair enough, Pastor Wilson. I see what you're trying to get at, and don't wish to try to endlessly parse it out with objections at every stage. That's likely just as unhelpful as the thing I am objecting to: the attitude of intellectual bellicosity which is the default attitude of many Evangelicals when they encounter ideas that, as someone else said to me on the other post, make them just want to roll their eyes and turn the page. There is such a thing as an unfaithful desire for "academic respectability," but it should be also considered that there is such a thing as an equally unfaithful Fundamentalist closed-mindedness about the life of the mind, particularly as it relates to one being more willing, for the sake of persuasion, to consider oneself possibly in error than to merely laugh heartily at the "silliness" of that which is different from "what the Bible plainly says" and call that intellectual rigor.

I suspect we're just not going to agree on this, because I think you and I have different evaluations of the relative value of our shared Fundamentalist past and also different ideas of what the Liberal Arts (of which Rhetoric is one) are for and how they relate to the articulation of one's personal faith in the public sphere. That's alright, and should be food for further iron-sharpens-iron conversation.

Blessings on your excellent work, Pastor.
Matthew N. Petersen  Wednesday, December 12, 2012 1:41 pm
No, I imply that they will seem the same as their stereotypes. Furthermore, there is a world of difference between saying that someone is acting in a particular way now (though it may or may not be characteristic of all their actions) and saying they are the noun form of the action.

The leaps from "will be perceived in this instance as X" to "acted as X" to "is X" are not warranted. If katecho had asked "Are you saying..." it would have been different. However, he merely stated, as if it were indisputable fact.

Indeed, your characterization ignores the obvious context: Pr. Wilson had said that he was being pugnacious rather than reasoning. I have no clue where you guys get off attacking me for saying he was.

I would ignore him, but it seems everyone believes him, and so I should respond to the slander by denying it. If you want to tell me that I am in fact lying when I deny the accusation, I suppose that's your prerogative. But it is not charitable of you to pretend to read my thoughts.
Matthew N. Petersen  Wednesday, December 12, 2012 7:02 pm
Indeed, I shouldn't need to point out that these charges against me ignore the fact that I twice acknowledged that I was on a mobile device where I had trouble being articulate, and that I wrote a later clarification of the earlier comment from my nook. Perhaps I shouldn't have commented from my nook, though it seems my comment is (or should be) perfectly intelligible, if perhaps a little too punchy.