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Culture and Politics - Sex and Culture
Written by Douglas Wilson   
Saturday, 18 December 2010 09:33

The debate over "don't ask, don't tell" reveals that virtually no one understands what is going on. The absence of discipline is impossible in any society, still less in the military. This means that the question is a "not whether but which" question. It means that it is not whether we will discipline servicemen in terms of a sexual ethic, but rather which servicemen we will discipline in terms of a sexual ethic. In other words, it is not whether we will have a set of imposed sexual standards for the military, but rather which standards they will be. As Lenin once put it, with much more insight than our fumblo-rulers, "Who? Whom?"

The public discussion has thus far, in its sophomoric talking points way, addressed whether straight servicemen are willing to "serve alongside" their openly homosexual peers. This question would obviously include evangelical Christians. But this is not the question at all.

Anybody who has spent any time in the military knows that it is not a bastion of righteous behavior. If you join, you will serve alongside fornicators and drunks, and you will learn how to work together with them. Adding patriotic poofters to the mix is a non-issue, and barely worth discussing.

The issue is this. Homosexual behavior in the ranks is now being considered as a protected and honorable lifestyle choice. This means that if an evangelical Christian witnesses to his crewmates, and he says that Jesus died to liberate them from their sins, and somebody says, "Like what, fer instance," he can still say "drunkenness, cocaine use, gambling away your family's paycheck, sleeping with hookers in Naples, laziness, stealing, and adultery." But if he now includes sodomy, then if someone complains about him (and someone will), the witnessing Christian will be subject to the discipline of the service.

It was the case that someone could be discharged from the service for openly defying the law of God. We are not moving from that to a neutral position. We are moving from that to a position that will discipline servicemen for honoring the law of God. There is no middle ground.

 

 



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Robert Seward  Saturday, December 18, 2010 10:06 am
More than that, it will get a lot more servicement killed. Think how anti gay the Muslim world is, This is real kindling for anti US rallies.
Charles Long  Saturday, December 18, 2010 10:27 am
Perhaps. But then, the Muslim world is pretty anti-Christian, too, so that might be a wash.
Robert Seward  Saturday, December 18, 2010 3:18 pm
I'm sure ACLJ will be filing lawsuits as soon as Servicemen get charged
Matt Weber  Saturday, December 18, 2010 10:46 am
The Muslim world, like the rest of the world, is pretty 'kill those who are invading us' so I doubt homosexuality in the ranks of the invaders will trouble them greatly.

Robert Seward  Saturday, December 18, 2010 3:17 pm
I look at how the Muslims react towards the gays in Europe. That is where I am getting this idea from.
JP1  Sunday, December 19, 2010 6:01 am
Yes, because its such a friendly, non-imperialistic religion and does not have 1300 yrs of History and a theology that suggest otherwise :roll:
C. Frank Bernard  Saturday, December 18, 2010 12:14 pm
Quote:
Jesus died to liberate them from their sins [...] Like [...] drunkenness, cocaine use, gambling away your family's paycheck, sleeping with hookers in Naples, laziness, stealing, and adultery.


Why's "cocaine use" in this list of seven sins?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocaine#Effects_and_health_problems

We need a J.Gresham Machen attacking the Prohibition of plants.
Douglas Wilson  Saturday, December 18, 2010 3:31 pm
C. Frank, why talk of Prohibition? I was talking about sins, not crimes. In my Mosaic and libertarian paradise, only two of the above list would necessarily be against the law.
C. Frank Bernard  Saturday, December 18, 2010 4:22 pm
Because if you think "cocaine use" is a sin yet not because it's currently a crime, then how's it necessarily a sin? Perhaps you meant cocaine abuse.
Robert Seward  Saturday, December 18, 2010 4:16 pm
O got every piece of major legislation that he wanted passed. The next time the Dems get in power, they will take it to the next step. That is their plan. Let the lawsuits begin.
A. K. Hauck  Sunday, December 19, 2010 5:43 am
I wonder if there will now be ' Patriotic Poofter ' divisions.....perhaps a new Tomb of the Unknown Poofter? We just can't sprint to Gomorrah fast enough, eh?
JP1  Sunday, December 19, 2010 6:13 am
For the younger generation this is a big deal to them, issues like this are near top of why they are so liberal and if not liberal Dem, the libertarian/libertine movement.

List of R Congressmen and Senators that helped pass this:

House: Ron Paul (Texas), Reps. Judy Biggert (Ill.) Joseph Cao (La.), Charles Djou (Hawaii), and Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (Fla.)

Senate: Scott Brown (Mass.) Collins and Olympia Snowe, both of Maine, Mark Kirk of Illinois; George Voinovich of Ohio; and Lisa Murkowski of Alaska....and after filibusters John Ensign of Nevada and Richard Burr of NC, decided to vote Yes on final passage.
Matt Weber  Sunday, December 19, 2010 9:10 am
In the end, DADT died because no one really cared anymore. Even the military itself largely turned against it. Given the scale of American military superiority, having gays in the military will likely have no effect whatsoever on our military position even if it ends up being harmed. And what other reason is there to oppose the gays?

I do wonder if open homosexuals will be given separate barracks.
Paula  Sunday, December 19, 2010 11:56 am
@ Matt....I suggest you scroll back up and read what Doug wrote. Saying it will have no effect on the military is naive.

Matt said, "In the end, DADT died because no one really cared anymore."

I think this episode shows the extent to which media outlets such as Fox News, Rush, Beck, etc. drive the conservative movement, at times, to its detriment. For the most part, when this issue was discussed in these venues it was in the context of "most Americans support dumping DADT" and "it's a done deal." Neither of these statements are necessarily true, but it was the narrative we were fed, so there was no almost no public objection to changing the policy.

Had there been an outcry from some of these [more libertarian than most would like to admit] folks, it may have turned the tide and affected the outcome. Instead, the only sections of the military survey highlighted were the sections that were mostly supportive of abolishing DADT. Almost no press coverage was dedicated to some of the severe consequences that will surely arise from this brave new world.
Matt Weber  Sunday, December 19, 2010 3:04 pm
It will have no effect on our military position, which is the number one concern of any normal person regarding the military. Whether evangelical christians can preach or not is pretty far down on the list.
David Gray  Sunday, December 19, 2010 3:09 pm
We will also see a substantial impact on chaplains who will receive increasing amounts of command pressure to not preach the whole counsel of God.

For Matt's eccentric concerns consider this; homosexuals constitute around 1% of the population and most are highly disinclined to accept the sort of discipline the military will provide. So you are gaining very few recruits. But as godly young men and their parents consider military service they will increasingly be reluctant to join an institution which is actively seeking to normalize sexual perversion. There will be a modest retention problem and a substantial recruitment problem. The depraved rebels who've pushed for this won't be filling the ranks.
Matthew N. Petersen  Sunday, December 19, 2010 9:36 pm
The only reason the issue of an institution actively seeking to normalize sexual perversion would be an issue is if we forget that it has been doing that for years and years. Unless, of course, you don't think pornography and prostitution are sexual perversions.
Matt Weber  Monday, December 20, 2010 8:09 am
It may well be true that some people at the margin will no longer be willing to join the military because of open toleration of gays. It would be an entertaining result, given that the issue is often framed by the left in terms of recruitment numbers. However, I think most people who have a problem with moral degeneracy in the military already left around the time they started admitting women. Homosexuals are small potatos, comparatively.
Doug Sowers  Sunday, December 19, 2010 7:40 pm
"It will have no effect on our military position, which is the number one concern of any normal person regarding the military".

Matt, do you consider yourself normal? :confused:
Matt Weber  Monday, December 20, 2010 8:10 am
On this issue, at least.
Matthew N. Petersen  Sunday, December 19, 2010 9:38 pm
Matt,

The number one concern of any normal person is Christ is King. Any sort of success of the United States military is of no consequence other than inasmuch as it affects it's stance toward Jesus Christ, our King and our God.
David Gray  - re:  Monday, December 20, 2010 4:45 am
Matthew N. Petersen wrote:
The only reason the issue of an institution actively seeking to normalize sexual perversion would be an issue is if we forget that it has been doing that for years and years. Unless, of course, you don't think pornography and prostitution are sexual perversions.


If you think that DoD is going to treat homosexuality the way it treats pornography (indifference) or prostitution (hostility) you are kidding yourself. And even if your odd notion was correct expanding the perversions to be normalized would be noteworthy.
David Gray  - re:  Monday, December 20, 2010 11:25 am
Matt Weber wrote:
However, I think most people who have a problem with moral degeneracy in the military already left around the time they started admitting women. Homosexuals are small potatos, comparatively.


Spoken like a man with no experience and little imagination.
Matt Weber  Monday, December 20, 2010 12:52 pm
Indeed, my imagination is far less active than yours appears to be.
Daniel Franzen  Monday, December 20, 2010 12:14 pm
Having been in the military for the past eight years (and having two and half more to go), I can speak for many servicemen that I know that we have some pretty serious concerns about this repeal. Does it make our ranks less degenerate?--perhaps not, as many here have correctly observed that the military already does not punish pornography or fornication (it is only a matter of time, really, before adultery is no longer officially punished). However, and here is the crucial point I believe, in our collective mind, homosexuality is a state of being, not a sin. In other words, to tell a homosexual that they need to repent in our country is to commit the same offense as telling a black man to repent for being black (continued).
Daniel Franzen  Monday, December 20, 2010 12:19 pm
I do believe that Christian servicemen and women will run into problems and as Pastor Wilson has advised, "we have to be willing to run our careers into the ground" in order to do right in the sight of God. Chaplains I believe will either be disciplined for their "discriminatory" counsel or be successfully muzzled. Commanders are going to have to make decisions regarding participation in the inevitable "sensitivity" training that is going to come down. All in all, this is a bad thing. It is the categorizing of sin (homosexual behavior) as a state of being and then sanctioning it institutionally. Bad day, folks.
Doug Sowers  Monday, December 20, 2010 1:44 pm
Well put Daniel!
Respectabiggle  - re:  Tuesday, December 21, 2010 7:49 am
Matt Weber wrote:
It will have no effect on our military position, which is the number one concern of any normal person regarding the military.


Allowing open homosexual behavior in the military will, indeed, have a deleterious effect on military effectiveness, one that (unlike racial integration) cannot be overcome with experience, education or policy. Allowing homosexual relations among servicemembers introduces eros into relationships that only work when they are based on philia and agape. This will tarnish every decision and action, from who gets assigned to chip paint to who walks point on infantry patrols.

This has been the case with broadening the role of women in the service, but will be even worse for at least two reasons, first because there are still prohibitions on women serving in certain combat roles, and second because male homosexual activity is vastly more promiscuous and aggressive than that of heterosexuals.


Speaking as a serviceman with over 18 years of Active and Reserve service, I can say that, just as with the inclusion of women, the military will follow orders and make homosexual inclusion a success, no matter what the actual evidence indicates.