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Theology - N.T. Wrights and Wrongs
Written by Douglas Wilson   
Tuesday, February 16, 2010 12:26 pm

The next Tabletalk article was written by a friend, RC Jr. I begin this way in the interests of full disclosure, and also because it is important to note that I happen to know he did not contribute this article in the interests of scoring anybody off, or for the sake of picking a fight. RC is not a Federal Vision guy, and never has been, and this article does not represent any change in his views. He believes that it is possible to be a fine and orthodox Christian while embracing the Federal Vision, but that it is not possible to be a "Reformed and confessional" Christian while embracing the Federal Vision. He thought this before he came into the CREC, and he has believed it during his time in the CREC. So on a personal level, things are just fine.

But there is still a significant confusion operating here, and because it has been published in Tabletalk, and a lot of our guys are having to field questions because of it, I do need to say something about it.

This edition of Tabletalk was dedicated to answering N.T. Wright and, as I have noted, some of the articles have and some haven't. This article, entitled "Two Birds, One Stone," seeks to acknowledge the differences between the new perspective on Paul and the Federal Vision, while at the same time treating them together, in keeping with the theme of the magazine. They may be two birds, but one stone should get them.

 

The main issue that RC brings out for examination is the doctrine of perseverance. And the best way to respond to this is by saying, at the front end, that if the FV really did deny "the biblical doctrine of perseverance of the saints," then I am with RC -- which is to say, down the road. "One cannot deny perseverance, or affirm a system of thought that leaves little room for perseverance, and still claim to be Reformed or confessional." That is quite right. And because I am Reformed and confessional, I wouldn't remain with a group that taught (or allowed for) a denial of the classic Reformed doctrine of perseverance. If this is flipped around, we can look at it from another angle. From this angle we see that Douglas Wilson is not FV at all. Quite a relief, let me tell you.

The CREC, where I minister, certainly allows for FV and/or FV-friendly men. It also contains men who are not FV at all. It contains no one who denies, directly or by implication, the Reformed doctrine of perseverance.

RC goes on to say that one cannot claim to believe in perseverance if one affirms "God predestined that some would come to saving faith and then lose that saving faith." This is also true, but only if phrases like "saving faith" are being used univocally -- which the Bible doesn't always do. The fact that I am to make my calling and election sure is not a basis for saying that my election was ever unsure.

Every FV man I know affirms Westminsterian predestination, on scriptural grounds, and also denies that it should be confused or blended with the scriptural passages on apostasy. In short, we are forced, on exegetical grounds, to note the equivocal use in Scripture of some words, phrases or concepts. What we have done is affirm both uses as legitimate, each in their respective place and position.

It is quite striking that each of the articles responding to N.T. Wright responds to a particular quotation from his writings, and interacts with it. This article doesn't cite any particular FV writer, or the joint statement of the FV. On perseverance, the joint FV statement says this: "We affirm that those who have been justified by God's grace through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ are saved to the uttermost and will spend eternity with Christ and his saints in glory forever." And, after these earthly days of our theological bumpity bumpity are over, so we shall.



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Last Updated on Tuesday, February 16, 2010 2:50 pm
 
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Mark Horne  - Wright is "once saved, always saved"  Tuesday, February 16, 2010 12:52 pm
If I get time I'll try to post Wright on the warnings in Romans 11 in his commentary on that book. While it is simply false to claim that FV denies the perseverance of the saints, it is even less right to make such an accusation against Wright.
AdamR  Tuesday, February 16, 2010 1:04 pm
I've read RC's position on the FV, and basically, he affirms about 75% of what the FV does, while maintaining (correctly) that one doesn't have to be an FV man to affirm those things. He's a great guy. Nonetheless, I haven't found any of these articles as compelling as you (likely to your credit and my eventual chagrin). Your interactions with them have been good, and made solid points, but I haven't seen any of these articles come close to touching Wright in too many substantial ways (and you have ably pointed out the ways in which they have).

RC's seems particularly problematic for bringing the FV into the conversation, a move that is destined to do nothing but confuse and muddy waters it looked like we were finally getting clear of. RC's admitted he's read almost nothing by Wright or the NPP, and he has admitted to not having read much about the FV either. His presence therefore alongside D.A. Carson and John Piper seems especially odd - not because he is in any way inferior to them, but because he just hasn't done the necessary reading.
Tim Etherington  Tuesday, February 16, 2010 1:58 pm
Well to me this is just dandy. Doug's NOT FV and so I'm allowed to like him again! :)

Kidding aside, this is an issue that deserves more discussion but even that doesn't seem to gain much. My biggest beef with FV from the beginning is that they are confusing. And sometimes they are confusing on some very important doctrines. I applaud the desire to use Biblical language in a Biblical manner. However, if you KNOW that word X is used to mean notion Y and has been used that way quite a bit in contemporary times, they you should darn well use a turn signal when you use it Biblically. Others are not going to get it that you just went from "Contemporary" to "Biblical" unless you signal the turn.
Gianni  Tuesday, February 16, 2010 2:05 pm

Mark, you don't mean "once saved always saved" in the R.T. Kendall sense, do you? If you do, I'm shocked. Please do tell more.

James B. Jordan  Tuesday, February 16, 2010 2:15 pm
Uh, Mr. Etherington. WE in the FV have pretty much ALWAYS signalled that we are using terms in a Biblical sense and have been very careful to note that they are used differently in some systematic theologies. I can only get the impression that you've formed your opinions on FV from hearsay, and not from reading or listening to what any full-fledged FV people (me, Leithart, etc.) have said and written.
AdamR  Tuesday, February 16, 2010 8:22 pm
Mr. Jordan, as someone who has read just about everything within reach on the FV, I find you guys really have used all the signals you could. The use of the term "regeneration" is a perfect example. I could go and find dozens of times when you guys say "keep in mind, we're using regeneration in the broader sense, not the more recent restricted sense." And then everybody tries to pull you over and give you a ticket for not using your turn signal.

I once had an elder at our church say he didn't necessarily mind the FV, except that it was like "nailing jello to a wall" and was really confusing. I thought to myself, "really? Makes sense to me."
jay niemeyer  - Sola Fiducia for the Federal Vision  Tuesday, February 16, 2010 5:43 pm
If what FV folks affirm is that only the truly regenerate via grace come to real fiducia - and thus cannot become un-regenerate - and thus cannot persevere in unbelief to the end, where is the disagreement with Westminster, Belgic, et al?


Mark Horne  - Good question.  Tuesday, February 16, 2010 8:14 pm
Bingo.
James B. Jordan  Wednesday, February 17, 2010 8:42 am
"If what FV folks affirm is that only the truly regenerate via grace come to real fiducia - and thus cannot become un-regenerate - and thus cannot persevere in unbelief to the end, where is the disagreement with Westminster, Belgic, et al?"

Answer: FV has no problems with Westminster, Belgic, etc. Never has had any problem with them.
Tim Etherington  Wednesday, February 17, 2010 5:20 am
Well Mr. Jordan, we're all entitled to our opinions aren't we? I'm simply reporting what I've seen.

As someone watching from the sidelines my observation is that the FV has been using language in a way that confuses non-FV. For the first year or two I didn't get what the FV was saying. So I'm going to have to go ahead and issue this citation for "Improper use of turn signal." I'm not saying FVists did it with the intention of getting the TR in a lather, but that was the result. (I was going to make an R. Scott Clark joke here but I won't.)

To the non-FVs, I'm going to issue a citation for "Advancing into an intersection before it is clear." The reaction I've seen from the non-FV side is that they rushed in with accusations before they understood what the FVists were actually saying.

In the end, I think Doug is going a very long way to building a bridge. He has made FV much more intelligible. For me, he knocked off the paper horns and tail that some in the opposition had attached.
Tim Etherington  Wednesday, February 17, 2010 5:21 am
Well Mr. Jordan, we're all entitled to our opinions aren't we? I'm simply reporting what I've seen.

As someone watching from the sidelines my observation is that the FV has been using language in a way that confuses non-FV. For the first year or two I didn't get what the FV was saying. So I'm going to have to go ahead and issue this citation for "Improper use of turn signal." I'm not saying FVists did it with the intention of getting the TR in a lather, but that was the result. (I was going to make an R. Scott Clark joke here but I won't.)

To the non-FVs, I'm going to issue a citation for "Advancing into an intersection before it is clear." The reaction I've seen from the non-FV side is that they rushed in with accusations before they understood what the FVists were actually saying.

In the end, I think Doug is going a very long way to building a bridge. He has made FV much more intelligible. For me, he knocked off the paper horns and tail that some in the opposition had attached.
T. Robinson  - Leithart & Jordan  Wednesday, February 17, 2010 5:53 am
Would (holding to) the perspective suggested by James Jordan in his article "Thoughts on Sovereign Grace and Regeneration" fit within the accepted bounds mentioned above? What about Peter Leithart's chapter 4 "Apostasy Happens" in The Baptized Body? Do those suggested positions, and the way they are articulated, find room within the Camp?
AdamR  Wednesday, February 17, 2010 8:05 am
T. Robinson, yup. They both count.

Mr. Etherington, we're gonna have to appeal this citation in court, I'm afraid. Y'all just got to agree not to stack the jury. And don't worry about making R. Scott Clark jokes. Just mentioning his name is enough. ;)
Tim Etherington  Wednesday, February 17, 2010 8:55 am
Fair enough Adam.

And I kind of get the feeling that by mentioning Clark's name most of the readers of this blog will immediately invent better jokes than I was going to make. :)
James B. Jordan  Wednesday, February 17, 2010 9:21 am
Well, without intending to be contentious, I'd very much like to be referred to any writings by any FV people that failed to make these clear distinctions. I contend that we always have, and I'd like to be shown any evidence that we have not.

The antagonism of the TRs was to the actual teachings discussed in FV, mainly paedocommunion. But there was also a huge amount of politics and personal revenge-taking (by Morecraft, who started the ruckus).

Until I am shown evidence that FV writers have not made these distinctions, I do not admit to this charge, and I defy anyone to back it up.
Gianni  Wednesday, February 17, 2010 12:36 pm

Mark, did you say "bingo" to me or to Jay Niemeyer?

Mark Horne  Wednesday, February 17, 2010 8:03 pm
to Jay