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Without Property Rights There Are No Human Rights PDF Print E-mail
Culture and Politics - Obama Nation Building
Written by Douglas Wilson   
Wednesday, April 14, 2010 6:15 am

One of the complaints made against King George III in our Declaration of Independence was this one: "He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance."

Multitude of new offices. Swarms of officers. Harassment from the government. Eating out our substance. Anything sound familiar?

As Christians talk about governmental thieveries, the discussion of these issues in America has an additional layer, and that layer, just like all the others, is unfriendly to tyrants.

I want to argue that property is a God-given thing, and the right to own property is therefore an "unalienable" right, meaning that a man cannot be alienated from it -- unless by a fair trial in which it is shown that a man has, by his own behavior, forfeited that right. In other words, a man being executed for serial murders is about to lose any possibility of owning property in the future, and no injustice is being done to him. But unless a man has violated the law of God in such a way as to make this happen, his property is his, placed in his hands by a gracious God. That property is not placed there by the magistrate.

When God prohibits adultery, He is presupposing an institution (created by Him)

called marriage. If there were no marriage, there could be no adultery. When God prohibits stealing, this assumes the same kind of thing. God created the world in such a way that we are given the gift of owning our goods, and God then commands our neighbors to respect that, just as He commands us to respect their goods. This is one issue that comes up twice in the Ten Commandments. We are told not to take our neighbor's stuff in the eighth commandment, and we are told not even to think about it in the tenth. Property is as much an institution of God as marriage is. It must therefore be handled the way He says to handle it. Property is legitimate because He gave it to us, and taxes are legitimate within the boundaries that He has established.

Against this backdrop, consider this part of the second paragraph of the Declaration.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness."

Given what I have said above, it is obvious I believe this sentiment to be correct. But whether it is correct or not, it remains an essential part of the American legal tradition. That means that even those American believers who are dubious about my understanding of Romans 13 can still act as though it were correct, whether it is or not, because it is an essential part of the fabric of our legal tradition. For just one downstream example, the preamble of the Idaho Constitution says that the people have the right to alter their government whenever they feel like it. These are words that can be freely obeyed. Why? Because the Bible says to obey the existing authorities!

So the right to "alter or abolish" "any form of government" that has "become destructive" of our unalienable right to pursue "life, liberty, and happiness" is a right that is not bestowed on us by the government that itself needs to be altered or abolished. That would be a dumb set up. But even if the right to act up in this way did need to be bestowed on us by the government (which it doesn't), we are fortunate to live under a tyrannical government dumb enough to have done just that. Every Fourth of July, countless fireworks are set off in commemoration of this very principle. Right? So yay.

But the only consistent foundation of this understanding is the recognition that God is the only real title company there is. He is the only true basis for one of the foundational human rights -- that of clear title.



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Last Updated on Thursday, April 15, 2010 5:46 am
 
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gullchasedship  Wednesday, April 14, 2010 7:32 am
Hello Pastor,

You wrote:
Quote:
Property is legitimate because He gave it to us, and taxes are legitimate within the boundaries that He has established.


I've searched through your posts on this issue to try and find where you've outlined from Scripture what exactly these boundaries are. I can't seem to find it. Would you mind doing so again or pointing me to the correct post?

Thanks!
David DeJong  Wednesday, April 14, 2010 7:37 am
"That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

This is straight out of Rousseau. I'm surprised you indicate your agreement. Governments don't derive their power from the consent of the governed; they derive their power from God.
Douglas Wilson  Wednesday, April 14, 2010 7:47 am
David, I would refer you to Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos, a Huguenot work a century or more before Rousseau, and Rutherford's Lex Rex, also not dependent upon that sorry individual.
David DeJong  Wednesday, April 14, 2010 10:40 am
You are expressing exactly the same sentiments as that "sorry individual" did, regardless of dependency.

Why do you think that governments derive their power from the consent of the governed?
Andrew Roggow  Wednesday, April 14, 2010 8:06 am
Good post. Property rights are a foundation for many of our other rights. What is the point of talking about freedom of the press, freedom to bear arms, or freedom of religion unless one presupposes the right to own a press, a firearm, or a religious gathering place?

When the state levies property taxes on something, it is assuming ultimate control of that property as evidenced by the fact that they have the power to take it away if you don't pay the tax. Sure, the state has not tried to levy property taxes on printing presses....yet. But they churches already pay property tax and the state has been trying tax firearms, too. So what makes anyone think that printing presses are safe?
dave matre  Wednesday, April 14, 2010 9:04 am
Did our government act unjustly in any of its acquisition of land from the Native Americans? If so, did any obligation for redress fall to subsequent inheritors of that land?
Robert Seward  - Reservations  Wednesday, April 14, 2010 10:32 am
The British Government, American Government, Spanish Government and Mexican Government have consistantly tried to assimilate or exterminate Native Peoples. My gggrandmother wasn't allowed to be buried to my gggrandfather because she was half Indian and they wouldn't permit her into an all White cemetery. The practical application for Native People is to HONOR THE TREATIES WE SIGNED! The Makah should not have to fight the government when they want to go kill a whale! (for example)
Jane Dunsworth  Wednesday, April 14, 2010 10:12 am
Dave Matre, that seems a sticky one to me. Did we treat the natives unjustly? Obviously. Is it about property rights, though? That's less clear. They didn't really claim "ownership" of property that anyone could "take." What they wanted was to be left alone to make use of unlimited free space, but at the same time without claiming "ownership."

Surely there could have been a more just resolution that the evil and debacle that resulted. But I'm not sure that any redress, if any such thing is possible, takes the form of "restoring property" that they actually never claimed to hold in the first place.
Jane Dunsworth  Wednesday, April 14, 2010 10:15 am
The only way to respect a "property claim" that the natives had would have been to let them have the whole continent, undisturbed. They didn't want this part of it or that part of it, the way Naboth wanted his orchard they wanted the run of it (as though Naboth had refused to let Ahab plant an orchard anywhere in Samaria.) (And many of them they would have been pretty happy to be rid of each other, for all that. NOW whose property is whose?) But it is hardly a just claim that they were entitled to that.
Robert Seward  Wednesday, April 14, 2010 11:13 am
Jane, A lot of treaties had well defined borders which have been inarguably violated since they were founded. In the fifties, the government disenrolled several Tribes who have been fighting, with various levels of success to get what little they had, returned. The town that Doug Wilson and I live in should be on the Nez Perce Reservation. As I understand the story, the Moscow area was taken from the Tribe to encourage White settlement and so Idaho could have a stronger clain to the northern part of the state which would have blocked the state of Washington extending to Montana. I could be wrong on that story but I am certain that Moscow (Tutxinmepu in Nez Perce) was part of the Nez Perce Reservation. I have years of contact with the Nez Perce and Coeur d'Alene Tribes. CDA is the Tribe just north of Moscow. They had a court challenge against the State of Idaho as to who owns the lower third of Lake Coeur d'Alene. It went to the Supreme Court. The Tribe won.
Robert Seward  Wednesday, April 14, 2010 11:14 am
Most Evangelicals don't love Indians, because they have been conditioned not to. To a certain extent, we are all a product of our environment. People who grew up on Westerns, which almost always show White Culture (Spanish or Anglo) as the natural winners have little sympathy for peoples that they really don't understand. We are more than willing to work with an Indian if they will meet us on a White's terms (Spanish or Anglo). We are not willing to meet them where they are. Becoming a Christian does not mean becoming a White Man. We are willing to meet Blacks, Asians of every type, Pacific Islanders, ANYONE but Indians. Anglo Protestants and Latino Catholics are the same when it comes to this.

"The shows that you watch as a child are iconic to you for the rest of y9ur life." June Lockhart.
How many westerns did you watch as a kid?
Tim Enloe  Wednesday, April 14, 2010 11:18 am
Behind Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos is John Calvin, and behind Calvin is Marsilius of Padua's Defensor Pacis (13th century), and behind Marsilius is John of Paris On Royal and Papal Power, and behind them all are the classical Greeks and Romans. Rousseau and Locke keep coming up, as if bad words that invalidate the position, but if the position is invalid it is invalid all the way back to the very beginning of what we call "Western Civilization."
Daniel Foucachon  Wednesday, April 14, 2010 11:21 am
Robert, the Indians were pagans. Becoming Christian would entail a change of their culture. They didn't need to become "white men" and have a specifically Anglo culture, but the Gospel and Word would change them in many ways, especially generationally. I think that one of those ways would be the way they view property.

The same goes for African tribes. They can continue to hold to their culture, but if their culture is based on paganism, it's going to change a lot. I was amazed when visiting South Africa at how you can tell a Christian household from a pagan household literally miles off. The Pagans were afraid of prosperity because they were afraid of the gods. You know more about the NW Indians than I do, but wasn't the way they moved around and had no property related to their view of the spirits?
Robert Seward  Wednesday, April 14, 2010 11:56 am
Daniel, Our government's agenda was not their conversion but conquest. There were missionaries whao were very successful. Next time you are up in Coeur d'Alene, take a little side trip to Cataldo and look at the Catholic Mission built willingly by the Coeur d'Alene.s

Your argument doesn't address the issue of taking Reservation Land after the treaties were signed. We are talking well defined borders and government attempts at forced assimilation, greed and treachery. That is my primary argument.

As far as the spiritual issue, I would recommend you make some time and read up on Marcus and Narcissa Whitman and the MacBeth sisters. The Gospel was penetrating the Nez Perce before the conquest. It still is penetrating. The government however wanted the Tribe marginalized, assimilated and gone.
JP1  Wednesday, April 14, 2010 12:48 pm
many don't realize it, probably since there is basically a Jefferson cult out there, but it was Jefferson who started the Trail of Tears, Jackson just finished it. I'm sure in his rationale it was in the aim of National Security and Prudence. The Founders justified alot of things on prudential grounds. A term you rarely hear used in political and policy debate today.
JP1  Wednesday, April 14, 2010 12:53 pm
I'd point out Abortion should be argued on Private Property Rights, more so than on Moral(Murder) grounds at this point since that point is well known. The left has rationalized Abortion on the "Property Rights" of the Mother. Basically they are saying she has the right to Kill the human living inside her. We should say the Human living inside her has the Human Right to "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit..." as we all do, and nobody has the right to deny that basic Right. The Left basically is using the same logic used to justify Slavery for centuries.
Jane Dunsworth  Wednesday, April 14, 2010 12:58 pm
Robert, I was going back to the beginning, before there were treaties.

Of course treaty violations are unjust. But even so, they aren't actually "property rights" violations. When Hitler invaded Poland, it wasn't primarily a crime against Polish property owners -- it was something else. Violating treaties is evil, but I think it's about something other than "property." If the Canadians were to come across the lake and invade Erie, they'd be doing an injustice to me, even if they didn't get more than a mile inland -- whereas all my property is two miles inland.

And I said I believe there could have been a more just solution to the competing desires for using North American land than the horrible things that happened, so I'm not sure what you're addressing with the rest of your comments.
Kenneth Lackey  Wednesday, April 14, 2010 1:33 pm
A few observations. It's curious that you would claim something is an unalienable right (and in your sense unalienable b/c God given), with the exception that an individual can be divorced from such a right by way of a "fair trial." Curious in the sense that it makes a sacramental gift (the "gift of the given") vulnerable to civil law. This also contradicts your sentiment that property belongs to a man unless he has "violated the law of God" -- the previous statement (that violation of civil law might deprive one of property) seems a more accurate description.

In other words, I think the way you've phrased things suggests or hints that we should distinguish between property in the legal sense and "property" (i.e., existence, the World in a deeper sense than the planet earth, that which is given unto humanity as both a gift and a responsibility) in a theological sense. Sue's ownership of a house, versus Sue's dominion over the earth. Existence (if theologically understood as god-given) does not itself guarantee us individual property rights, does it? If this is what you intended to argue, I think more leg work would be required. Or if I've misread you, and you literally mean that God through the 10 commandments endorsed (or began) the tradition of private property, then I suppose my response is simply that this does not strike me as exegetically sound. It seems to deprive the moment of covenant of its profundity and reduce it to mere rights and rules, in the vein of a literal document.

One reason would be that I note you rely exclusively on the Old Covenant to state your case. The life and teachings of Jesus show no sign of materialistic fetishism, or we might say: quite the opposite. A question, then: is this piece motivated by your political or theological leanings? I can't imagine a robust theology that would find so much excitement in the merely human claim to "own" something... but politically, it sounds rather familiar.

Other thoughts:

Does this reasoning have traction in the actual governance of the US, where theology cannot be introduced as a possibility condition for proprietary laws? How could it without violating the establishment clause?

Also, the title and content of this post threw me a bit. I don't intuitively grasp the connection you make between a divinely bestowed right to property and the right to revolution. The title argues (in fact I see not an argument but a conclusion, with no support from the piece) that the right to property is a possibility condition for all other rights. And if I have not already outstayed the welcome of my comment, a word on that:

I'm not sure if it works even inside of a theological formulation of natural rights -- that an inalienable right to property is a possibility condition for all other rights. I assume that (1) there are those without property and (2) that those without property maintain their status as Children of God from the POV of mainstream theology. As an example, you claim that right to property can be removed (by civil authorities), but one's creaturely relationship to God cannot be removed by civil authorities. Also, if I were a theologian I would want to have an understanding of human nature such that even if my right to property had been taken away in the court of man's law, I would have other creaturely rights that could not be taken away.

One last point: your claim about a theological understanding of property being the only "consistent foundation" for such a right is too strong in the sense that you nowhere demonstrate the inconsistency in, e.g., individualism, classical liberalism, etc.
David DeJong  Wednesday, April 14, 2010 1:43 pm
Tim Enlow said:
Quote:

Behind Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos is John Calvin, and behind Calvin is Marsilius of Padua's Defensor Pacis (13th century), and behind Marsilius is John of Paris On Royal and Papal Power, and behind them all are the classical Greeks and Romans. Rousseau and Locke keep coming up, as if bad words that invalidate the position, but if the position is invalid it is invalid all the way back to the very beginning of what we call "Western Civilization."


So are you saying that the whole of this venerable tradition claims that government rules by the consent of the ruled?
JP1  Wednesday, April 14, 2010 1:54 pm
Here is one for you, Churchill and Eisenhower helping the Shah of Iran come to power. This was something that was brought up by history revisionist in attempt to place the blame on them and American 'interventionism' for the 1979 Islamic Revolution in Iran. i.e. "Blowback"

Part of why they helped the Shah, aside from keeping their leftist leaning govt. from going to the Soviet Side of the Iron Curtain....was Private Property Rights of Western Companies

Mossadegh seized an Oil Field and the Private Property of a British Oil Company. After Diplomacy failed, the Mossadegh regime then began to systematically Communize the Iranian Economy. All in the context of the rise of Soviet Communism and the "iron Curtain". So Churchill and Eisenhower acted to thwart this in Iran and in fact Protect/Defend Western Private Property Rights. The immediate with the Oil field and the bigger picture(Cold War).

So, were the US and British Governments therefore Just by defending Private Property as well as Western Interest in general, with this act of "intervention" abroad? Same arguments could be made for the Gulf War and many other I suppose.
Anti-Federalist  Wednesday, April 14, 2010 3:14 pm
JP1,

International Business have to realize the risk when they do business overseas. The US government has no jurisdiction to enforce property rights in any land but the US.

What if Japan thinks Toyota is being wronged in the US? Do they have the authority to intervene in our borders to overthrow our government? No. The same principle of jurisdiction applies to the US. US based companies have to be willing to take more risk when operating outside the protection of the US.
JP1  Thursday, April 15, 2010 6:51 am
So your saying the Inalienable Rights stop at our borders and Tyrants in other countries, if they take power and choose, can thwart these Inalienable Rights because they ulitmately are source of these rights there? Economic Liberties be damned? Certainly wasn't the view of the original Jeffersonians, given what they did in power abroad.

What about the Cold War? USA was wrong to stop Soviet Expansion, whether in this case, or our intervention in Poland, Central America, Grenada, etc?

as for your Japan/Toyota comparison, its not the same comparison because Business Law and setup is totally different than in the old days of Iran/Britian. That said, defense of Private Property rights has a track record of being a good thing. Japan is a great example, post-WW2/Marhsall Plan as well as South Korea next door, compared to what it would be(a stronger, larger NoKo).

Anti-Federalist  Thursday, April 15, 2010 9:21 am
Quote:
"So your saying the Inalienable Rights stop at our borders and Tyrants in other countries, if they take power and choose, can thwart these Inalienable Rights because they ultimately are source of these rights there? Economic Liberties be damned?"


JP1,

No, Inalienable Rights do not stop at our borders. God will hold the tyrants in other lands accountable for their persecution of their people. The key point here though is that God will do it, not the US military.

The US military has the right to bear the sword to punish evil only in matters that are within our borders or a threat to our borders.

Once an international business leaves the safe haven of the jurisdiction of the US and its laws, they can no longer expect the US to enforce US law in lands that the US in not sovereign in.

Quote:
"Certainly wasn't the view of the original Jeffersonian, given what they did in power abroad."


I'm not sure exactly what you are referring to hear. Jefferson did authorize the use of force against the Barbary Pirates, but that was in International waters. I think Jefferson was right in this. Today, if the pirates in the Indian Ocean try to attack a US oil tanker, there is no problem with the US navy defending the tanker and attacking the pirates in international waters. However, if a US oil company has a oil refinery or oil well in the Nigeria, they cannot expect the US military to defend them. They are operating under the jurisdiction of Nigeria, not America. I don't believe God authorizes the use of deadly force for the reason of cheaper gas prices.

Quote:
"What about the Cold War? USA was wrong to stop Soviet Expansion, whether in this case, or our intervention in Poland, Central America, Grenada, etc?"


In many cases we were wrong. Korea and Vietnam are the two clearest examples.

Quote:
"as for your Japan/Toyota comparison, its not the same comparison because Business Law and setup is totally different than in the old days of Iran/Britian."


What exactly is the difference?

Quote:
That said, defense of Private Property rights has a track record of being a good thing. Japan is a great example, post-WW2/Marhsall Plan as well as South Korea next door, compared to what it would be(a stronger, larger NoKo).'


I agree with all that. I just don't believe the US has the authority to enforce the Bill of Rights in any land but our own. As John Quincy Adams said, "Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own."

If the US wants to take on the mantle of guarantor of peace and freedom throughout the world she we will be permanently at war with countless nations. She will therefore lose her own freedom, independence and rights.
Robert Seward  Wednesday, April 14, 2010 2:32 pm
Quote:
Of course treaty violations are unjust. But even so, they aren't actually "property rights" violations.


Jane, every man, woman and child that I know who is Native would disagree with that statement.

Look at Oklahoma and see how much Reservation land is left. None. Indian Territory? sure.
:cry:
Reservations are corporate property of the Tribes. Covenental Property promised between the United States and the various Tribes. That is part of the Constitution, tied into the commerce clause. The government stole their land after the treaties were signed and approved At the same time, the government encouraged others to do likewise and we, the church, said nothing. why should we then be surprised when God lets the government steal ours? As I understand Covenental Theology, how we honor or dishonor those treaties is an influence on how God will treat us. There is a story is 1st or 2nd Samuel about that people that Israel let have it that they shouldn't have. what did God do? and why? think about it.
Anti-Federalist  Wednesday, April 14, 2010 3:11 pm
Robert,

Do you think the land that was wrongfully taken should now be restored to the Tribes?
Robert Seward  Wednesday, April 14, 2010 8:00 pm
For the lands that were promised in trust or to be parts of Reservations, the answer is yes. For areas that have been taken over such as Moscow, then full market value should be paid to the Tribe.
David DeJong  - re:  Wednesday, April 14, 2010 3:28 pm
Kenneth Lackey wrote:

One reason would be that I note you rely exclusively on the Old Covenant to state your case. The life and teachings of Jesus show no sign of materialistic fetishism, or we might say: quite the opposite. A question, then: is this piece motivated by your political or theological leanings? I can't imagine a robust theology that would find so much excitement in the merely human claim to "own" something... but politically, it sounds rather familiar.


This is astute. One of the dimensions of Wilson's theology that I generally appreciate is his insistence on relevance. I think Wilson's stance in these posts needs to be seen as a reaction to the fundamental irrelevance of a lot that passes for evangelicalism, with its pie-in-the-sky Christianity. (Reformed scholars also are guilty of this: think of those who insist on the rigid separation of two kingdoms, with Scriptural teaching having no relevant role in the State.)

Having said that, I think in some of these posts the pendulum has swung too far the other way. Yes, Christianity ought to transform culture, but don't identify Christianity too closely to one particular culture.
Kyle S.  - re:  Wednesday, April 14, 2010 4:34 pm
David DeJong wrote:
Why do you think that governments derive their power from the consent of the governed?


Exodus 19:7-8 is suggestive.
Ben Franklin  Thursday, April 15, 2010 3:52 am
Robert,

I agree with you in theory. But on the practical side. If you own property in the Moscow area and haven't paid the Nez Perce tribe for it are you not a "squatter" on Indian land? Are you not equally bound to the concept of restitution as a thieving government should be? Not an indictment against you, just a question for your consideration.
Charles Long  - No difference?  Thursday, April 15, 2010 4:45 am
Do none of you see a distinction between theft and conquest? A government's actions toward its citizens are governed by different sets of rules than are a government's actions toward other entities (like other sovereign governments). Should this fact be considered in the conversation?
Jane Dunsworth  Thursday, April 15, 2010 6:09 am
Robert -- governments, whether native tribes or federal republics, don't own the property of the people who live within their borders. The individuals do. The government doesn't have "ownership," it has sovereignty, which is different. That's why a treaty violation isn't a property crime, it's an invasion or conquest.

INVASIONS OF NEUTRAL SOVEREIGN ENTITIES IN VIOLATION OF TREATIES ARE BAD. But they are a different category from property crimes.

I don't disagree with the native Americans over the injustice involved in the issue. I disagree with their (according to your report) understanding of the precise nature of the issue.
Anti-Federalist  Thursday, April 15, 2010 7:12 am
Robert,

I think Jane makes a great point about the difference between ownership and sovereignty relating to the difference between invasions and property crimes.

We basically have to look at the US Manifest Destiny ideas as conquest/invasion of Indian lands. They lost the land because they could not defend it. If they could have successfully defended the land or retaken it through conquest it would be their land. However, they could not defend it and therefore lost it through the invasion.

This happened in other areas as well. Ask Mexico who rightfully owns south Texas. Mexico could not defend it and they lost it through invasion as well. Ask Spain how they lost Florida. That was basically invasion as well.

If Mexico were stronger and the US was weaker, Mexico may be tempted to re-take south Texas. If they successfully did, it would not be US territory anymore because we couldn't defend it.

If China overtakes Taiwan, it will be China's territory.

These are all different nations fighting it out. Some lose and some win. I'm not justifying how the US took Indian land, I'm just saying that we did win and therefore it is ours. You can cite broken treaties, and I agree that its totally wrong and sinful to break treaties. However, it doesn't really change who's land it is.

Hitler had no problem breaking treaties and conquering land. He was wrong to do so but once the land was conquered it was German land...until they lost it by the land being re-conquered.

Throughout history different sovereign nations have expanded their borders through war and others have lost territory through war. We can't go back and make every wrong right. All we can do and try to influence our current government to act in accordance with biblical principles of war and invasion.
Robert Seward  Thursday, April 15, 2010 10:03 am
Quote:
If Mexico were stronger and the US was weaker, Mexico may be tempted to re-take south Texas. If they successfully did, it would not be US territory anymore because we couldn't defend it.


A lot of people believe that is exatly what is intended by the Mexcan government through illegal immigration
Anti-Federalist  Thursday, April 15, 2010 10:21 am
I think they are correct. The Mexicans feel that they were just as wronged as the Indians regarding their land.

How do you see the difference? Should the US just give southern Texas back to Mexico?
Robert Seward  Thursday, April 15, 2010 1:33 pm
Nah. Mexico claimed it, but that isn't who was living there. That would have been the Comanches. Since we didn't make a treaty with them regarding the land, no restitution is necessary. Besides Texas was Independent when the US nnexed it. The U.S. never took Texas from Mexico.
Robert Seward  Thursday, April 15, 2010 7:48 am
Quote:
hether native tribes or federal republics, don't own the property of the people who live within their borders. The individuals do.


Not necessarily. I am not just talking about tribal rights here with this response. Think about grazing leasing rights. A lot of ranchers don't own large parts of the land that their herds graze. The federal govenment does. The ranchers lease the land. It is a big issue regarding raising the rents becaue it affects the price of beef.

Another example is the Uranium mining leases on the Navaho Reservation. A lot of those are owned by the Tribe.

Quote:
That's why a treaty violation isn't a property crime, it's an invasion or conquest.


So what is to keep the Feds from snapping up every reservation and selling them off to the highest bidder. That is what the states have been trying to do for years.

Jane Dunsworth  Thursday, April 15, 2010 6:10 am
After all, if the government owns the property within it's sovereign borders, what's wrong with what Ahab did, anyway?
Robert Seward  Thursday, April 15, 2010 7:56 am
Fifty percent of Utah is owned by the feds. did you know that? As to your answer, just because the Feds and the States don't own all of their land corporately does not necessarily mean that the Tribes operate on the same principle. Ahab violated several Old Testament Commandments that refer to action against an individual, not a corporate entity like a Tribe.
Charles Churchill  - Turn the question around  Thursday, April 15, 2010 6:16 am
David,
The problem I have with your last statement is that while one supposes that you mean, "there is no perfect Christian culture here on Earth, so don't wrongly identify Christianity with the parts of Western or Eastern culture that are unscriptural, remember that whatever we are doing, it will in some way be wrong and imperfect", it ends up meaning, "Christianity doesn't produce a specific culture", which makes no sense whatsoever.

Otto Wetzel  Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:42 am
Perhaps someone already brought this up, and I missed it, but with regard to the Indians, it's important to point out that in many cases Indian tribes were living on land they had taken by conquest from other tribes. We often look at "Indians" in the monolithic sense, while forgetting that there were various tribes who fought, conquered, and even exterminated others.

This is not to say that the whites were justified in conquering Indian lands, only that often the Indians cannot appeal to an absolute "we were here first" principle.
Jane Dunsworth  Thursday, April 15, 2010 12:38 pm
"So what is to keep the Feds from snapping up every reservation and selling them off to the highest bidder."

Treaties? Sovereignty? Laws?
Charles Long  - re:  Thursday, April 15, 2010 12:59 pm
Jane Dunsworth wrote:
"So what is to keep the Feds from snapping up every reservation and selling them off to the highest bidder."

Treaties? Sovereignty? Laws?


Defense. They can presently defend the land. Sure, it's through political mechanism rather than war machines, but it's a defense that works now (as evidenced by half the comments on this thread). If it ever became politically acceptable for the US to annex or "conquer" the reservations, then the Indians would most likely not be able to defend the land, and it would become territory of either the federal government or the state it's landlocked in.
Charles Long  - warring tribes of pagans  Thursday, April 15, 2010 1:06 pm
And Otto has an excellent point. As individuals, the Indians are people. Humans. Souls. But as a people, or rather, as a collection of peoples, they were warring tribes of pagans.

There were also several warring tribes of pagans in South America, but many of them were steeped in human sacrifice, and as far as I know most of them have been wiped from the face of the earth as a people. Like the Hittites. And Philistines.

Hmm... and here we are in the US, killing how many hundreds of babies a day, worrying about our property rights...
Jane Dunsworth  Thursday, April 15, 2010 6:40 pm
If by "as a people" you mean as a group that functions with any significant group identity, i.e. rules itself and so forth, you're right in some cases.

But there are plenty of people still speaking Mayan languages in Central America and thinking of themselves as Mayans, and the Qechua tribes are intact direct descendants of the Inca people with a strong remaining tribal identity. The Aztecs, though, as far as I know, mostly exist as cultural curiosities -- people who want to cultivate "Aztec culture," whereas most of their third cousins are just Mexicans now.

OTOH, the temples are all GONE.
Robert Seward  Thursday, April 15, 2010 7:30 pm
No, I am talking about federally recognized tribes that signed formal treaties with the United States Government.
Jane Dunsworth  Thursday, April 15, 2010 6:44 pm
Charles, you're right, but I think (I might be wrong) Robert was looking for a philosophical/moral reason why the US shouldn't try such a move. And my contention that it's not because of "property rights," because tribes don't (or at least shouldn't) own all the land the people live on -- the people should own it. If a native guy has a house and a farm, it should be his, not the tribe's. The principles of sovereignty, treaties, and laws to uphold those treaties are the reasons the US shouldn't violate tribal sovereignty, even if they can or want to, or can get away with it.
Robert Seward  Thursday, April 15, 2010 9:12 pm
Jane, you understand my position.
Jane Dunsworth  Friday, April 16, 2010 7:28 am
Robert, the "as a people" comment was in reference to Charles' remarks about the MesoAmericans no longer existing "as a people." Sort of yes, sort of no.

I understand your category of federally recognized tribes and I think that's a legitimate category.
Robert Seward  Saturday, April 17, 2010 8:40 pm
That is important and that is as good as I can hope for in this venue.
Charles Long  - re:  Friday, April 16, 2010 8:06 am
Jane Dunsworth wrote:
If by "as a people" you mean as a group that functions with any significant group identity, i.e. rules itself and so forth, you're right in some cases...

...the temples are all GONE.


Jane, yes -- this is what I had in mind. As a culture, these people have ceased to function. And with their culture has passed not only their indivdual propert within that sovereign nation, but also their national sovereignty as a people, their influence, power, and intitutions of paganism and scope of human sacrifice.

I brought this up this way to suggest that perhaps we are more like the South American tribes than the North American tribes. At least the ones in the north still have "reservations," and still have some semblance of culture and influence -- some kind of national sovereignty, such as it is. The baby slayers, on the other hand, as a people, are gone. So now here WE are, at that point in history where we fear losing our property rights, where we wonder about the future of our nation as a nation, and it just so happens that we have culturally institutionalized the slaying of babies. [And the congregation says "Uh-oh!"]

There are forces at work much more powerful than the weight of individual property rights, when it comes to the sway of nations. Yeah, Ahab was a thief when he stole the vineyard, and there were no mitigating details about it. But when Syria plundered Israel -- what was that?